Vid clip to share

[Craig]

Not the best quality (sony digital camera, not even a camcorder.)

Stop hit from the left 542k

Taken at a tourney I was at last november.

[Craig]

2 touches 1.7Mb

[D'Artagnan1673]

The first touch looks to me to be a prime example of the problem with right of way in which Peter is arguing against. The other point however has a little style and actual technique and strategy.

[Craig]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
The first touch looks to me to be a prime example of the problem with right of way in which Peter is arguing against. The other point however has a little style and actual technique and strategy.

Why do you say that? The fencer on the right got hit in prep. It was a one-lighter and obvious. Even if he had hit on a continuation it would have been a no-brainer call.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Craig,

I was talking exclusively on your second video clip. The first clip shows the action you are describing. All I was getting at is that the first point in the second clip had an action that looked like both people lunged and missed and then both lunged and one hit.

The clip looked to me like a classic case of the double defeat that Peter has been writing on.

[edew]

Don't know who the fencer on the left is, but it sure looks to me like Dmitri KirkGordon on the right. His leg movement, his head bob, and that final lunge motion all signal Dmitri.

I guess he was just playing around with the other guy, who, from my perspective is probably a novice with no more than 4 years of fencing (probably 3). Looks about 15-18 years old. One can tell by the way he's not so sure that he hit: he hasn't hit enough people to know what it feels like to hit people.

In an actual tournament against Dmitri, he'll be eaten alive in 45 seconds.

[edew]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Craig,

I was talking exclusively on your second video clip. The first clip shows the action you are describing. All I was getting at is that the first point in the second clip had an action that looked like both people lunged and missed and then both lunged and one hit.

The clip looked to me like a classic case of the double defeat that Peter has been writing on.

That's where you're wrong. For the first touch in the second clip, the action is: attack by the left is NO. Riposte by the right is NO. Remise by the left is GOOD. Touch for the left.

The second touch may be called as: attack by the left is PARRIED. Riposte by the right is GOOD. Touch for the right. OR, attack by the right is GOOD. Touch for the right. There is a noticeable delay before Dmitri starts his riposte/attack, which one could interpret as a complete stop, and a start of a new action, a new phrase. Or, one could interpret it as slow riposte.

[Jupiter]

What I did notice about the fencers was that the fencer facing the camera, the shorter fencer, looked like he was having a tough time getting his point into the target, and was flicking into the chest while at the same time his taller opponent was very quickly returning the blade. My comment for the shorter fencer is that he looks like he needs to remember his posture, his back leg was not in a good position for a sufficent parry, while the taller fencer was able to break through his defenses and score. I also noticed that the fencers tended to keep their foils in a low-line position throughout, the taller fencer could afford to do this, but I think the shorter fencer needed in this bout, to watch himself. [that's my analysis from the chairside]

[afc fencer]

Don't know who the fencer on the left is, but it sure looks to me like Dmitri KirkGordon on the right. His leg movement, his head bob, and that final lunge motion all signal Dmitri.

Yah it was Dmitri. That was at some tourney at my club

Looks about 15-18 years old.

The guy on the left is on the vetreans national team so i don't think hes 15-18.

[edew]

The one on the left moved a bit too fast and impetuously to suggest a veteran. But, I've seen some. Maybe that's why Dmitri was being kind. He does respect his elders.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Edew,

I have taken the time to download the 2nd clip again and I stand by my assesment of the first of two touches. There was a pretty good delay in between the attack and the riposte. I admit that I cannot say that I am an expert on fencing, but I would have called that attack to left no good, then attack to the left and counter attack to the right, touch left. The fencer to the right has very nice reflexes and gets out of distance well as part of his parry.

The second touch looked like a beat attack then a pause with a nice disengage. Just my assesment, but I am no expert.

I will stick with epee.

[a517dogg]

in the second clip:

first touche is attack, parry riposte is no, remise is yes.

second touche i would call as attack is good.

very clear.

[lfortier]

Theese were quite the interesting clips Could you please keep 'em coming Craig?

[edew]

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
Edew,

I have taken the time to download the 2nd clip again and I stand by my assesment of the first of two touches. There was a pretty good delay in between the attack and the riposte. I admit that I cannot say that I am an expert on fencing, but I would have called that attack to left no good, then attack to the left and counter attack to the right, touch left. The fencer to the right has very nice reflexes and gets out of distance well as part of his parry.

The second touch looked like a beat attack then a pause with a nice disengage. Just my assesment, but I am no expert.

I will stick with epee.

D'art,

Read A517dogg's assessment. It is clearly a parry by the right and a missed riposte plus a counter-attack from the left.

It's a standard problem for most beginning referees. They assume that the riposte has to be fast. It has to be immediate, but does not require speed. Thus, the slow riposte by the right is indeed a riposte. There was no hesitation nor indecision by the fencer on the right.

Actually, after a second viewing, I don't think that the riposte was even slow. It was immediate and in the same tempo as all the other actions. If you were to beat time for the attack and riposte, you'll see that the attack goes dum-dum-dum, and the parry is one more dum, and the riposte begins as the next dum. The remise from the left is the next dum, at the same time the riposte should have arrived, but was accidentally closed out.

[Craig]

Originally posted by edew
Don't know who the fencer on the left is, but it sure looks to me like Dmitri KirkGordon on the right. His leg movement, his head bob, and that final lunge motion all signal Dmitri.

I guess he was just playing around with the other guy, who, from my perspective is probably a novice with no more than 4 years of fencing (probably 3). Looks about 15-18 years old. One can tell by the way he's not so sure that he hit: he hasn't hit enough people to know what it feels like to hit people.

In an actual tournament against Dmitri, he'll be eaten alive in 45 seconds.

You are correct, that was Dmitri during a tourney at the Atlanta Fencers' Club. My first tourney in a while and it ended up with Dmitri beating me 15-10 or 15-12 in the final. He was staying in Atlanta before going on to a WC and decided to play around with us that day. It's too bad that I didn't get someone to tape our bout, b/c it was pretty fun.

This bout was the quarterfinals I believe...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by a517dogg
in the second clip:

first touche is attack, parry riposte is no, remise is yes.

second touche i would call as attack is good.

very clear.

ditto.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by edew
The one on the left moved a bit too fast and impetuously to suggest a veteran. But, I've seen some. Maybe that's why Dmitri was being kind. He does respect his elders.

I didn't see that at all. my initial impression was of an older fencer (didn't necessarily think veteran, but certainly thought older than teenage).

-m

[rvergara]

Originally posted by lfortier
Theese were quite the interesting clips Could you please keep 'em coming Craig?

Exactly what i wanted to say