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Old 05-22-2003, 10:00 PM   #1
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Time use while group teaching

Hi!

In any sport, there at least 5 types of training:
1. technique drill
2. strength training
3. Cardiovascular training
4. mental training
5. match/game/bout simulation - free-fencing in our case

Assume that you are teaching a bunch of beginners, what % of the total time should be spent on each part? My opinion is that #1 and 5 should get about 50 % each, and the other three should be left for later. The reasons for this is that fencing requires so specialized - and lets face it - unusual moves, that for beginners with normal strength and CV fitness, only technique training gives the steepest learning curve. It also improves retention. Mental training should wait until the fencer knows *which* thoughts he should think, and he cannot know that begore he knows a bit about fencing.

What are your thoughts? What allocation is good for other settings?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson
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Old 05-23-2003, 09:01 AM   #2
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I have only recently taken up Epee, but have been around several other sports over the years. We started with lessons once per week, for one hour. The first 2 sessions were footwork drills. The third started with basic parrys and blade technique. I think it was the fifth lesson before we actually started bouting.

I think you are correct Peter when introducing students to fencing it is important ot get to the "fun stuff" as soon as they have a grasp of the basic footwork.

With todays fast paced, immediate gratification, mentality students will not wait for months before being allowed to touch a blade as was the practice in times past.

Fencing should be exposed to as many people as possible and instruction should be structured to hold their attention and keep them interested until they find out if they love the sport or not.
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Old 05-23-2003, 05:42 PM   #3
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Our time use for childrens' classes

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
In any sport, there at least 5 types of training:
1. technique drill
2. strength training
3. Cardiovascular training
4. mental training
5. match/game/bout simulation - free-fencing in our case

As Ramrod points out, people expect a lot of immediate gratification. Sometimes they look at you as if you're withholding something, if they can't fence right away. After all, they signed up for fencing, didn't they? How hard can it be? And, fencers who start fencing too soon often think, "There it is, I've fenced!" and they quit without knowing anything of the depths or intricacies of the sport. (Also, coaches know that new fencers who are thrust into bouting too soon, get lots of bad habits that can take years to fix.)

For myself, I'm trying to move away from the old ideal of "years of footwork before bouting." At our class, we try to include everything PeterGustafsson mentioned, but with the intent to fast-bake decent bouters. The truth is, these 5 types of training intersect each other, so it's not an "either/or" situation.

20% Cardiovascular training -- Comes at the beginning of the class, when students jog around the building to warm up the muscles, before stretching. Cardio comes again during footwork. We also play games that develop endurance, balance and dexterity.

Strength training -- comes naturally with doing footwork and drills. The kind of muscles fencers need are best developed by doing fencing. Later, when competitive fencers need that extra edge, we bring up cross-training.

Mental training -- comes when fencers are at an intermediate level. At that time, the students are still unclear about what's happening to them, and have been beaten and humiliated on the strip. When the fencing-thinking is brought up, they are dying to hear it, and they understand its value. This is 1% of time, on a per-student basis.

30% Technique -- Group/partner drills have been the hardest to do. We teach young children, and they have no interest in guiding themselves. It can get quite chaotic at times. Since our class has 2 instructors, we can sooner move away from group drills and into 1-on-1 short lessons with each student. For the basics, we spend about 5% overall time in a semi-circle, going through the parries and extensions.

50% Bout / simulation -- We try to simulate real encounters at every step. For example, a partner drill or footwork might be the "Soviet Distance Exercises", described on this site. They are very realistic, but also improve cardio, strength, and footwork technique. When an instructor is leading footwork, we use body-language to communicate when to lunge, advance lunge, rather than shouting out the commands -- this lays the groundwork for fencing-thinking. Perhaps 40% simluation (drills, footwork, etc.) and 10% bouting.

After the first 4 classes, students begin bouting for the last 20 minutes of each class. Because of our methods (I hope), the kids are pretty rational for brand-new fencers. But we've only been doing this for the last year, and it's too soon to say what the results are. I think we've uncovered one gifted 9-year-old, and 2-3 others who will be quite solid if/when they decide to fence seriously. Too many of these children are simply not competitive -- they hate losing, but they don't try to win. Has it always been this way!?

Interestingly, the children often see bouting as another task rather than the reward. This may be because we do little fencing-thinking, and they are frustrated when they don't understand what to do to win. We may try to spend more early time on fencing-thinking, but the kids have so much energy they don't really listen to talk. We need ideas to make bouting more fun for kids.
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Old 05-27-2003, 01:38 AM   #4
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Wflaska has way more experience than I'm likely to ever have, but just to give you an idea of how things work I'll tell you how group lessons tend to work at my club. I can't really break it down into percentages though.

Classes officially last an hour. Of course if anyone wants to come early or stay a little after to practice we don't discourage them. (the ones who want to stay after or come early are usually the ones we want to encourage anyway since they're likely to keep it up and join the club). Classes are generally held twice a week for six weeks.

The first class is a little different naturally. During that class the first ten or fifteen minutes go to a quick overview of the history of fencing--when I started it was longer through experience it's gotten condensed quite a bit to basically, there were sword, then gunpowder came along, gun powder made it easier to kill people/things, then sword fighting became a sport--an explaination of the different weapons--we talk about target area, show them what each weapon looks like and pass one of each around--and then explaination of rules and procedures--be sure you're warmed up, wear good athletic shoes, never point your weapon at an unmasked person, etc. Then they start to learn basic footwork. Usually it doesn't get beyond advance and retreat--first doing exactly what the teacher does (teacher takes an advance, students take an advance, teacher retreats, students retreat) and then mirroring the teacher (this is more dynamic sort of simulating actual fencing action in that the teacher advances, the students retreat, the teacher retreats, the students advance). If things are going really well, they may also learn how to hold a foil.

The next time we usually go through some stretches at the beginning of the class and a quick rundown possibly of what a pre-competition warm-up would be. After that class it's assumed that the students will handle their own warm up before class.

Classes open with various footwork drills. Usually just mirroring the teacher. I'd say we do that for maybe ten or fifteen minutes. Then the students move on to drills. Sometimes they then move to doing hits on the wall, sometimes they do partner drills--and yes this is hard with kids, doubly hard with siblings since they immediately start arguing about who's doing what wrong, I know from experience --this takes up most of the rest of the class. The last five minutes or so we do practice bouting. Basically two lines, everyone bouts against the person across from them, one line moves over one person then bouts their new partner. The first couple times are pretty free form. We try to emphasize that the point is to hit your opponent. Right of way, parries and disengages come into play as they are learned. Students are encouraged to practice the new techniques during their bouts. How much this occurs varies. I know when I was a beginner I just tried to win a lot of the time, other than to see if I could fake out my opponent. Now if I'm mixing in with the beginner class, I try to work on whatever the "new move of the day" is. I also try to offer invitations--non-verbal of course--to try the moves they've just learned.

There are exceptions. The first day the students hit each other, we have to help them find equipment and teach them how to put everything on--and of course remind them again how important it is to have it on. At some point we also talk about right of way and directing. For most of one day the students practice directing each other too.
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Old 05-30-2003, 01:17 AM   #5
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group lessons

I've been teaching high schoolers to fence for about 12 years now, and am most often forced to deal with them in large groups. For what its worth,

1. I leave more and more of the cardio and strength training to them -- those that are going to become competitors develop it

2. its easy as a coach to do technique, technique, technique . . . but too often this creates someone who fences a series of moves, not a bout. you've seen these fencers -- technically competent, but unable to adapt or think on strip -- realistically, the first year has to have a lot of technique, especially footwork.

3. I let them spar at max 10 minutes at a time for the first couple of months, and don't put them on strip electrically for another month after that. I would only have them fence two or three tournaments in their first year. I still want them to do things right at this stage, even if it doesn't translate to wins. Yes, they get impatient. But I try to take the long view on this. Over the years I've become used to my fencers losing to kids their age the firstyear, maybe second year, then dominating these same fencers in the third and fourth year. Yes, I just hurt myself patting myself on the back.

4. What is becoming more and more valuable to me now are activities that offer a break from technique, train the instincts of bouting, but are not bad-habit inducing like bouting. Controlled bouting, allowing each fencer to only score a certain touch, distance bouts played with a glove and only an advance lunge allowed, decision drills involving bean bags, etc. The kids think I'm trying to "keep it fun".
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:58 AM   #6
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Hello Peter.
I agree with you the 1st and the 5th are important for the beginers. The other 3 steps will come later when the fencer has enough expirience.
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