Bare non-insulated grips for Foil?

[CvilleFencer]

I just got an order from Blue Gauntlet, and in it was a complete FIE foil. Imagine my surprise when it had an non-insulated grip on it among other problems.

When I wrote to BG to find out why they would send me a foil with an epee grip they told me that the rules have changed and insulated grips are not required!

Has anyone else heard of this? Is BG just trying to cover their posteriors, or did I miss a rules change somewhere?

Thanks,

[edew]

Insulated grips are not required for foil. It's explicitly not allowed for epee.

I mean, what would having an insulated grip do for foil? I guess if the glove gets really wet and sweaty (as well as the sleeve), you might accidentally conduct a hit to the bellguard to the lame. But that requires a straight hit to the bellguard, which is not a frequent occurrence.

The prongs of the grips at one time would have had to be insulated to prevent one from grounding out the lame on the foil. But that's corrected now with the new machines (at least since 1992) so that if one were to "ground" the foil to the lame, the foil would actually be part of the target.

So no, there's no reason to have your grip insulated.

People do put tape on their grips to customize the fit to their hand, but that's hardly the intent of insulating, and certainly not something an equipment vendor would do for you.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by edew
Insulated grips are not required for foil. It's explicitly not allowed for epee.

I mean, what would having an insulated grip do for foil? I guess if the glove gets really wet and sweaty (as well as the sleeve), you might accidentally conduct a hit to the bellguard to the lame. But that requires a straight hit to the bellguard, which is not a frequent occurrence.

The prongs of the grips at one time would have had to be insulated to prevent one from grounding out the lame on the foil. But that's corrected now with the new machines (at least since 1992) so that if one were to "ground" the foil to the lame, the foil would actually be part of the target.

So no, there's no reason to have your grip insulated.

I think getting hit on the guard and getting a touch registered against you would be a reason. You might check M.13. Now it doesn't say the whole grip is required to be insulated, but it does require the extremeties. Were the extremities insulated? If not BG sold you an illegal weapon. Let them know that. I wouldn't fence with an uninsulated handle, just because of the reason Eric gave. You could also go without taping the blade, but that would be stupid also. I would contact BG again.

[Wizardly]

There is one advantage to having an insulated grip. Sunday I was receiving electric shocks to the hand due to a sweaty glove. Taping the grip largely solves this problem. Due to the sweat, the weapon DID register on target (hit to the blade, not the guard). TAPE YOUR GRIP. I would recommend this always always always just because you never know how much you're going to sweat by day's end.

If BG didn't insulate the end of the weapon, I'd suggest just taping it. Poof, legal.

While we're on the subject of insulated grips and grounding, perhaps you might tell me why exactly this was happening: I was soaking wet with sweat, right down to the glove and probably parts of the jacket and bib as well. After the first 9 touches and period of fencing, no touches were registering. The grounding light was perpetually on, and there was nothing mechanically wrong with the foil. The end of the weapon was insulated. Testing DID cause a hit to register, however none did during the bout. During the next bout, taping the grip solved the entire problem. Hits registered every time.

Given this information, can you verify the hypothesis: "I was grounding out through my grip which prevented hits from registering." Is just a lot of sweat required for this to happen, or must there be concurrent events, like an old box?

[DHCJr]

Most likely you were fencing on a box without the antifraud device. This is easy to test. Place the guard and blade against the lame (more contacts the better) and have your opponent hit you. If no touch, then it does not have the antifraud.

When testing you probably have a loose grip. When fencing a tighter (better, more conductive grip). This would change if the touches were recieved.

I said to talk to BG, so they would get an insulated handle. Yes they can tape the extremities themselves, but they might still have the same problem you had.

The same with the tabs on Sabre jackets or no solder on clips. Yes, you can fix them, but why should you have to. Armorers will never be able to get the vendors and manufacturers to clean up their acts, but by refusing illegal equipment, even though you could 'REPAIR' it will force the vendors and manufacturers to clean up their act.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I think getting hit on the guard and getting a touch registered against you would be a reason. You might check M.13. Now it doesn't say the whole grip is required to be insulated, but it does require the extremeties. Were the extremities insulated? If not BG sold you an illegal weapon. Let them know that. I wouldn't fence with an uninsulated handle, just because of the reason Eric gave. You could also go without taping the blade, but that would be stupid also. I would contact BG again.

No, they sent a straight bare aluminum grip with no insulation at all. Just like the one on my epee, which they wired incorrectly! I have never seen that before on an electric foil, and it is especially irritating when I paid extra for the Uhlmann grip! I could send it back and they would send a new one, but then I would have to pay shipping twice and that would be more than the cost of a grip. I might just take it off and spray paint it but it is annoying to have to go through the effort.

There is no way a couple of the senior judges in my Division would let me get away with fencing with an un-insulated grip even if I wanted to so I will have to do something.

Thanks for your responses! Nice to know I have not completely forgotten the equipment rules! :-)

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by edew
Insulated grips are not required for foil. It's explicitly not allowed for epee.

Wrong on both counts. As DHCJr points out, there IS a rule REQUIRING insulation on the extremities of a foil grip (this should be changed, as addressed below, but to my knowledge it hasn't been changed yet). The reasons for this are addressed below. In epee, there is NO rule one way or the other about insulation, with the exception of "nothing that can hide a switch (e.g. tape/leather). paint does NOT violate this rule. The reason epee grips aren't insulated has only to do with self interest. an insulated grip is just more legal target.

I mean, what would having an insulated grip do for foil? I guess if the glove gets really wet and sweaty (as well as the sleeve), you might accidentally conduct a hit to the bellguard to the lame. But that requires a straight hit to the bellguard, which is not a frequent occurrence.

Well, on the old machines (and some of the current ones. Eigerteks, for example), placing the blade, bell guard, or uninsulated grip in contact with the lame would PREVENT touches on the lame from registering. since the easiest of these to do is the extremities of the grip, there is a rule requiring insulation. This is also, supposedly, a contributing factor to the rule against reversal of shoulders, as when you reverse you can easily put your blade in contact with your lame as you remise at your opponent. given that current FIE boxes do NOT allow this trick, the rule could be removed.

The prongs of the grips at one time would have had to be insulated to prevent one from grounding out the lame on the foil. But that's corrected now with the new machines (at least since 1992) so that if one were to "ground" the foil to the lame, the foil would actually be part of the target.

nonetheless, the rule is still there. Also, some machines (again, Eigertek) do still have the problem.

So no, there's no reason to have your grip insulated.

um, the rule would be a good reason....

There's no good reason to have the RULE, but as long as it's there, it's a VERY good reason to have the grip insulated.

People do put tape on their grips to customize the fit to their hand, but that's hardly the intent of insulating, and certainly not something an equipment vendor would do for you.

true, and how I lament the fact that I, as an epeeist, can't customize my grip. it is very useful to be able to do this. however, the second point is wrong. Blue Gauntlet is wrong about this, AFAIK.

-m

[damianip]

Originally posted by epeemike81
(SNIP)

Well, on the old machines (and some of the current ones. Eigerteks, for example), placing the blade, bell guard, or uninsulated grip in contact with the lame would PREVENT touches on the lame from registering. since the easiest of these to do is the extremities of the grip, there is a rule requiring insulation.

(SNIP)

nonetheless, the rule is still there. Also, some machines (again, Eigertek) do still have the problem.

(SNIP)

Mike,

As I recall, the Eigertek does have "anti-fraud" circuitry. We used them at my old club.

Eigertek also claims on their site and in their literature that their machines cannot be "fooled".

I'm going to have to check this out.

Paolo

[Artisan]

Originally posted by epeemike81

....true, and how I lament the fact that I, as an epeeist, can't customize my grip. it is very useful to be able to do this. however, the second point is wrong. Blue Gauntlet is wrong about this, AFAIK.

-m

Ah...but you can. of course you can file away to make any area smaller or change the profile. There are conductive metal filled epoxies that you can use to add material to an aluminum grip, or send it to me and I'll weld some aluminum on where needed. Shoes and gloves don't come in just ten styles and three sizes, why should grips?

here's a link to epoxy:
http://www.mcmaster.com/asp/loadpage...Filled+Epoxies
or
http://tinyurl.com/ce6r


those links didn't seem to work:
goto http://www.mcmaster.com and search "epoxy conductive"

-art

[DJ Apostrophe]

Our (eigertek) at least, does not have the anti-fraud circutry... One of our foil fencers likes to mess around in practice, capitalizing on this... its rather amusing to watch...
-w

[oiuyt]

The version of Eigertek being sold about a year and a half ago had a programming error that removed the fraud-protection. Older and new boxes both have it. Eigertek offers a free chip upgrade to fix this problem. Unfortunately both they and American Fencers (who Eigertek refers you to for things like this) are not particularly easy to get the upgrade from. I have no doubt that if I spent the time to talk to them that we could get our box fixed relatively painlessly and easily, it just isn't worth the time.

The FIE requirements include the anti-fraud detection. Eigertek boxes DO comply with this. OUR Eigertek (and others of the same version that haven't been upgraded) do not.

-B :)

[damianip]

OK,

That makes sense. I did the chip upgrades on the boxes a while back. I guess I just never noticed the problem before that (our foilists are very honest).

Paolo

[oiuyt]

As are ours, despite the stated opinion of an epeeist (like you can trust THEM!!!! :) ). When done it is invariably done in an obvious manner as a joke. The way we knew about it was the Eigertek announcement of the chip upgrade.

-B :)

[DJ Apostrophe]

yeah... i know ours are honest... leo only occasionaly does it when he goes up to test against someone... laughs about it... and he's done... i find it amusing...
-w

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by damianip
Mike,

As I recall, the Eigertek does have "anti-fraud" circuitry. We used them at my old club.

Eigertek also claims on their site and in their literature that their machines cannot be "fooled".

I'm going to have to check this out.

Paolo

I think there may be a firmware upgrade. All I know is that the eigertek umass owns CAN be fooled, and is less than 2 years old.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Artisan
Ah...but you can. of course you can file away to make any area smaller or change the profile. There are conductive metal filled epoxies that you can use to add material to an aluminum grip, or send it to me and I'll weld some aluminum on where needed. Shoes and gloves don't come in just ten styles and three sizes, why should grips?

here's a link to epoxy:
http://www.mcmaster.com/asp/loadpage...Filled+Epoxies
or
http://tinyurl.com/ce6r


those links didn't seem to work:
goto http://www.mcmaster.com and search "epoxy conductive"

-art

thank you. very interesting, and I may look into it. however, tape is still more useful as it is a little easier to add, try, repeat. Also, it creates a cushion. when flicking, hard grips can frequently bruise my index finger. tape makes it easier to deal with that, whereas altering the metal doesn't add any softness.

Thanks again, though.

-m