Sorta sorting...

[BugabooX]

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[WHEREISMYTOE]

find someone smart

[edew]

Here's some ideas:

Number of fencers...................Format
1..................send him home
2..................best two out of three fifteen touch bouts
3..................best two out of three five touch bouts
4..................1 pool of four, DE from four
5..................1 pool of five, DE
6..................1 pool of six
7..................1 pool of seven
8..................1 pool of eight, double stripped
9..................1 pool of nine, triple stripped (even for epee, won't take too long)
10................2 pools of five
11................1 pool of five, one of six
12................2 pools of six
13................1 pool of six, 1 of seven
14................2 pools of seven
15................3 pools of five
16................4 pools of four or 2 pools of 8, double stripped
17................2 pools of six, one of 5
18................3 pools of six
19................2 six, one seven
20................4 pools of five
21................3 pools of seven
22................2 pools of six, 2 of five
23................3 pools of six, 1 of five
24................4 pools of six
25................5 pools of five, or 3 of six, one of seven if space is a problem
26................2 sixes, 2 sevens
27................1 six, 3 sevens
28................4 pools of seven
29................4 pools of six, one of five
30................5 pools of six
...

[BugabooX]

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[BugabooX]

That would be page 56 (or 70 if you're scrolling through the pdf online), of Book 2 - Organization Rules:

1. GENERAL RULES FOR THE ROUND OF POOLS
o.12 In all competitions for which the formula includes a round of pools, these
pools will consist of 7 fencers if the number of participants is divisible by
7. If not, they will consist of 6 fencers if the number of participants is
divisible by 6. Otherwise the pools will be of 7 and 6.
At World Cup competitions the Organizing country may add the necessary
number of fencers of their own nationality for all the pools to consist
of 7 fencers.

[Tomas N]

Most of the local competitions I've fenced in have used pools of size five or six unless the numbers just didn't work out. Pools of seven are too big. If you're running multiple events on the same day and have strip/time constraints, they take too long. At the other end, pools of four are too small to make it worth it to all the folks who only get 4 bouts in that day.

Tomas

[edew]

Originally posted by BugabooX
Ah, yes.
But what about the rules regarding pools divisible by six and seven?

Use your judgement with regards to the number of free strips available and the time constraints. A pool of six will run about 1 hour (more or less, for foil, sabre, or epee), a pool of seven will run about 1.5 hours. Add 10 minutes for epee, subtract 10 minutes for sabre (in either case). You don't have to be so precise as to get to within 10 minutes. If you can estimate to within 0.5 hour, you're in good shape. (Check-in close times aren't ever at 12:40 or 1:10 PM, it's usually on the hour or the half-hour.)

[DJ Apostrophe]

for the situation where you have a duplicated fencer, I'd scratch the fencer from the pool who has the lower high seed... meaning that if you have 4 pools of six... and duplicated someone in pools 2 and 4,(assuming the tournament's 2 seed is in pool number 2 and the 4 seed is in pool number 4), scratch the duplicate in pool number 4... I wouldn't bother to reseed the pools... too much effort.
-w

[BugabooX]

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[oiuyt]

DJ- Gack! Are you kidding? That might work if the duplicated fencer has a U, but anything above that and you're majorly messing up the structure of the pools. "Whoops! Suddenly my pool is missing the C fencer it should have had.... oh well."

The duplicated fencer should force a reseed.

6's and 7's are used nationally. 5's and 6's are generally used locally because when you get down to the field sizes typical at this level it's not possible to use 6's and 7's (your example of an 11-person tournament). Until you have 30+ fencers, 6's and 7's can't always be used.

Most locations frequently also bend other rules such as those required to allow people to fence multiple weapons (eg skipping bouts and allowing them to fence multiple bouts in a row to catch the pool up, etc.).

One modification to EDEW's suggestions: For fields of 16 I nearly always see 2 5's and a 6. Yeah, it's not as balanced as 2 8's, but IME it's what's used.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

First of all for the rule about 6 or 7. Look at the first rule in the rule book T.1. These rules are for World Championship, Olympics and World Cups. Nothing about local or NAC's.

How they get the 6 or 7 is the local country adds ringers. And as someone said before if you have less than 30 you might not be able to do that. What do you do send someone home? You could also run a round-robin which is one way about it.

Also if you check page 57, you see bout order for pools of 4 to 10, but if you check the FIE rule book there is only for 6 and 7. The USFA modified the bout orders, but they forgot to also fix O.12.

One of the inconsistencies in the rule book.

[BugabooX]

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[DHCJr]

So, can you tell me, why have the bout order for pools of 4,5,8,9 and 10, if the only pools you can have is 6 or 7?

Here is another question, check out the second paragraph of M.37. Are you required to follow that rule for USFA competitions, especially considering the first paragraph?

Or how about the second paragraph of M.38? I could go on and on, but these rules were created for FIE competitions and the USFA tries and make the changes as they pertain to USFA competition, but they do not always do it.

I was just trying to show that you have to take the USFA rule book with a LARGE grain of salt. I appologize that I did not make myself clear.

[BugabooX]

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[Headless]

Originally posted by WHEREISMYTOE
find someone smart

Yes, I agree. But where are you going to find one of those?!?!

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by BugabooX
You're interpreting the instructions incorrectly, D.
If possible, the pools must have a minimum of 7 fencers, or at least 6 fencers if not seven. That's why they list a pool order for 8, 9 and 10 fencers ... because you can't divide those numbers into two pools with at least 6 fencers each. (Ditto for 11, but that pool option isn't listed for some odd reason -- THAT is an oversight.) When you have 12 or more fencers, then you can always divide them up so that each pool has *at least* six or seven warm bodies. 15 fencers, for example, would not be three pools of five; it would be two pools of seven + eight.

As for other rules? (shrug) Argue that with someone else.

OK, I'm not worried about the other rules. But where do you get that you have to have at least 7 fencers, or at least 6 fencers? Where is that in the rule book?

Then why do they have the bout order for 4 and 5, if it is illegal to have a pool of less than 6.

You point to the rule book as gospel and then you disregard what it clearly states in O.12 'In all competition for which the formula includes a round of pools, these pools will consist of 7 fencers if the number of fencers is divisible by 7. If not, they will consist of 6 fencers if the number of fencers is divisible by 6. Otherwise the pools will be of 7 or 6.' Where did you get 'If possible, the pools must have a minimum of 7 fencers, or at least 6 fencers if not seven. ' I quoted from the 2002 rule book. Do you have a newer rule book I don't know about?

If I am wrong, I would like to learn. There is always more to learn. Can you enlighten me, where the 'at least' comes from.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by DHCJr
First of all for the rule about 6 or 7. Look at the first rule in the rule book T.1. These rules are for World Championship, Olympics and World Cups. Nothing about local or NAC's.

Yes, the rule book is specifying what is done in INTERNATIONAL FIE sanctioned competitions.

Also if you check page 57, you see bout order for pools of 4 to 10, but if you check the FIE rule book there is only for 6 and 7. The USFA modified the bout orders, but they forgot to also fix O.12.

One of the inconsistencies in the rule book. [/quote]

It is not an inconsistency; that is the official order for pools of the varying sizes that they MAY be -- the USFA did not modify anything -- it is only in FIE sanctioned international competitions that they MUST be 6 or 7, hence, which is why the FIE only addresses these.

The FIE only holds very large events; individual federations, and downstream the regional and local events need to have the bout order information in order to run competitions efficiently.

[DHCJr]

Thank you, nahouw. At least there is someone who agrees with me. In my first e-mail, I stated these were the international rules, but someone said differently. Many of the rules would be rediculous for locals and NAC's.