equipment

[MSUFENCER]

looking to purchase mass quanities of equipment (primarily foil) from physical chess, blue gauntlet or fence smart. what are your thoughts/comments?

[edew]

Try esun: www.esun.com.uk

It could take a while to send a wire transfer or international money order (they don't accept credit card), but they're cheap as all heck.

[fencingguy]

Blule Gauntlet is excellent. Typically high quality equipment and superb customer service. They also have discount rates for bulk purchases.

[CvilleFencer]

I would recommend against Psychical Chess, and with all respect to Mr. Dew, I would most strongly recommend against Esun.

They only take cash (wire transfer) and if there is a problem you will most likely never get your money back, shipping is ungodly, quality control is bad, blades that I have used are dangerously fragile, and in the end you really do get what you pay for.

Also keep in mind that cheap does not necessarily mean a good value. If all that were not enough keep in mind that you are buying from a state run factory whose products are made with what amounts to slave labor and whose funds go to support a brutal and despotical government. But moving away from the soapbox and continuing on track..

I have had nothing but good experiences with Blue Gauntlet and they offer attractive discounts to schools and clubs without the minimum purchase requirements or shipping hassles of Physical Chess. Having said that, keep in mind that a lot of their most inexpensive stuff is made by Esun!

I would highly recommend either BG in a quality line of gear or to order straight from a German company. You will not get much of a discount for bulk orders (unless it is a cargo containers worth!) but the prices are about 35-50% less than what you would pay in the states and the shipping is more reasonable. Also you can rest assured that you are getting some of the top gear made in the world.

Take a look at Fechtsport Lagenkamp, an Uhlmann/All-star dealer that works with lots of yanks and kiwis at http://www.fechtsport-langenkamp.de/html_en/start.htm , or you can try going straight to Uhlmann at http://www.uhlmann-fechtsport.de/inhalt_e.htm

Keep in mind that Uhlmann will not direct sell people of a state that it has an exclusive dealership within, but Lagenkamp will ship to Mars if you pay the postage! Also, keep in mind that Lagenkamps list prices includes a 15% German tax that we do not pay, so subtract that from their prices as you add it up.
Also anything you order from Germany will come with German wiring, tips, and sockets and guards. These are things you pay extra for hear in the states even with Blue Gauntlet.

To give you an idea of the price difference you can get I have used today’s exchange rates (so of the lowest in years!) and compared them with the prices from Blade to give you a base line.

All-star/Uhlmann entry level complete foil w/ German fittings: German Price = 47.78 Blade Price = 82.00

All-star/Uhlmann BF FIE Maraging Ultra Foil Complete: German Price = $102.20 Blade Price = $160.50

All-star/Uhlmann 2 prong foil body cord: German Price =17.93 Blade Price = 36.00

All-star/Uhlmann Stainless Steel Mesh CE Foil/Epee Mask: German Price = 79.40 Blade Price for
cheapest Chinese Mask = 59.00

All-star/Uhlmann Stainless Steel Lame: German Price = $82.42 Blade Price = $140.00

Adidas D”Artagnan Fencing Shoes: German Price = 69.48 Blade Price = 130.00.

So, as you can see the price difference is substantial. You can get very cheap, and cheaply made, gear from China or a few other places, but you will replace it two or more times before you have to replace the high quality gear. If price is the absolute deciding factor then the cheap Chinese gear may be the way to go, but if you are short on funds and having to scrape on gear, are you going to have more to spend next month when the stuff you just bought breaks?

I have rather firm opinions on the matter as I have tried it both ways in the past and have a ton of “great Deal” equipment that I have had to replace within a couple of months. The German/BF/Vniti gear I have bought has been going for well over six months. Lesson learned for me!

Anyway, sorry for the very long post, but I hope it helps.

[CarlKnoch]

Must say that I've bought Blue Gauntlet's cheapest stuff before and didn't like the quality. Had 4 electric foils from there, 2 broke in one tourney within 2 months. I also had a lame from BG and it tarnished badly within 6 months around the collar, even with showering it off after using it. Then the D Ring ripped off of it.

I had a Blade Fencing jacket that the D Rings in the back ripped off as well. It also was a terrible fitting thing. My wife had one as well that didn't fit well.

Since then my wife and I bought Uhlmann jackets, lames, body cords, and foils from Fechtsport Langenkamp. They're great. I did have to rewire a maraging foil because the german tip got sticky, (barrel out of round) but that's about it.

I got my kids some stuff from Tripplette and it seems to be holding up pretty good. Not bad stuff, but then I didn't buy the cheapest line, I got the better quality stuff. I think that matters. If you buy the better quality then you'll be more satisfied I think, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy the cheapest gear to be used as loaner gear for a class of beginners.

It's the age old question of what's better, a Cross Pen, or a Bic pen? It depends on what you need it for!

[neevel]

I typically go through BG for club gear- they overall have the best value-for-money on budget equipment from my experience. I do recommend going with their 'Olympic' mask over the bottom-rung model. The fact that their low-end glove is washable (instead of being cheap leather) is nice. The lames are overall the best inexepensive lames I've used (considering price/quality), although like any copper lame they do need to be washed regularly, and will not last for people with highly acidic sweat. The fact that they get green stains in the backing fabric does not necessarily mean that conductivity has gone bad. Most of the BG lames I've got in my club stock are green around the collar, but still have good conductivity there. Avoid eastern-european low-end lames.

I do like Triplette's basic back-zip jacket-- it's more robust than others in the price range, and they all have chest-cup pockets for women. They do have a baggy, one-size-kinda-fits-none cut and gorilla-length sleeves, but we're talking about a club jacket here. Anyone who's getting picky about fit is probably at the point where they should get their own jacket.

-Dave

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I looked through the ESUN online catalog a few weeks ago, and the prices were quite something else. While lower price often means lower quality, there are two types of fencing gear:
1. Safety-critical stuff (blades, clothes, masks)
2. Non-safety stuff (fencing boxes, tools, tip stuff, blade wires, body cords, etc)

Why not concentrating one´s order to the 2nd group, if one is afraid of bad safety?

I will check out their shop next time I am there - my inlaws live in Shenzhen, just across the border from HK.

There is also an Ukrainian vendor on the net that has a full set of fencing stuff. Their prices are quite low. Don´t have the URL handy, but can post it if you wish.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Jupiter]

Sorry to butt in as a fencing newbie, but I love shopping for fencing gear and I can't help but compare shop. One thing several people have told me in the past is that some companies are more than happy to make a special offer to a school. Since you said you were buying massive amounts, you should see if they wouldn't be willing to make you discount price as a continuing customer you may get continuous discounts. As far as equipment goes: the mask is real important stick to a very highly made mask, the jacket and glove can be 2nd or 3rd rate; but the mask has to be good; your blade, you should know from experience which blades you like fencing with. I like fencing with BG or Leon Paul's, also, santelli makes very good stuff. A santelli blade lasts forever, they use all high quality stuff; leon paul, france lames, negrini. i hope you go with them if you can, they're on the east coast if your club is east of the mississippi, you should be able to make a deal with them.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
Take a look at Fechtsport Lagenkamp, an Uhlmann/All-star dealer that works with lots of yanks and kiwis at http://www.fechtsport-langenkamp.de/html_en/start.htm

Apart from the shipping fees, this looks almost too good to be true. Question 1: is it for real? I visited the website, currency converted a lot of products. Great prices.

CvilleFencer -- have you ordered from them? How fast does "mail post" arrive (not airmail)? Is anyone suspicious about how they manage these prices for real equipment? What's the catch (or are american resellers just greedy?)? Has that extra 15% off for non-vat actually been experienced by a buyer, or is it theory?

This is on-topic... I'm looking at a group-buy for club members.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by wflaschka
Apart from the shipping fees, this looks almost too good to be true. Question 1: is it for real? I visited the website, currency converted a lot of products. Great prices.

CvilleFencer -- have you ordered from them? What's the catch (or are american resellers just greedy?)?

This is on-topic... I'm looking at a group-buy for club members.

Okay, I will try to answer all of that.

1. Is it for real? These are the prices you pay if you walk into a German store in Bonn. They go off of the suggested retail price sheet that Uhlmann/All-star sends out every year.

2. Have you ordered from them? To save shipping several people in my club usually get together and place the order and then divvy it up when it arrives. I have never ordered single, but our group has ordered before with great success, as well as friends from a different club.

3. Is anyone suspicious about how they manage these prices for real equipment?? Simple, that is what Uhlmann/All-star say it should be sold for in Germany and the retailers say "Ja is Goot".

4. What’s the catch (or are American resellers just greedy?)? Yes they are. They buy Chinese and East block gear for pennies on the dollar compared to German gear and then mark it up to what the German gear WOULD cost if they were not trying to make a killing. Which is after all the point of owning a business. Multiply your cost by 2.5 Is the usuall formula I believe. Also, Blade Fencing is the "Authorized" All-star dealer for the states and I think that a lot of places buy their resale stock through them and Blade IS that greedy! ;-)

5. Has that extra 15% off for non-vat actually been experienced by a buyer, or is it theory? It is not theory, it is fact. For that matter is is German Law. If you want you can add it all up without the VAT and fax your order to them with an authorization only for the price without the VAT. A friend of mine did this. They will grumble a bit (after all you are saying you think they are dishonest or incompetent) but will process your order this way.

6. How fast does "mail post" arrive (not airmail)? Mail post is actually better described as partial airmail. They send it ground to an overseas shipper (DHL, FedEx) and they fly it to a hub in the states depending on where you live, and then it goes buy truck after a customs dog strolls by it.

It usually takes between ten days and three weeks. I have never heard of it taking any longer from Legenkamp. A few other German shops take a bit longer. More like three weeks to a month. It partially depends on if you are ordering any custom gear. You can have lames/uniforms made to your specs for an extra 15% This is anther thing I love about the German shops being 6'5"! It does take a while however, and they will not ship until your order is complete unless you tell them otherwise.

Also it is great that everything you get on a complete weapon (tip, wire, socket, guard, pad, grip) are all Uhlmann/All-star. Even the best-priced places stateside charge you a ton extra for this.

If you want shoot them (Uhlmann or Legenkamp, All-star is not very responsive. They just tell you to contact Blade) an e-mail or give them a call. They are very helpful and do as well with English as a lot of our stateside retailers! :-) Legenkamp does a lot of business in the US and NZ. I think others on the board (Mergs, CarlKnoch, and Zouave to name a few) have had good experiences as well.

I hope all of that helps. I really think it is the best way to go for big-ticket items or club orders. If you just need a tip or a body cord you would be nuts to order from overseas because of the shipping but if you plan out your order and maybe get a couple of friends to go in with you, you can save a ton!

[oiuyt]

I haven't used lagenkamp but my club started ordering all of our gear directly from Uhlmann last year. When you can get Uhlmann gear for the same price, including shipping, that you would pay for budget gear from PC/Blade/BG/etc. it becomes a no brainer. Uhlmann's website lists both w/ and w/o VAT prices. Given that European laws don't allow for prices to only be listed w/o VAT it's clearly possible that if Lagenkamp only lists 1 price that you'll get the discount (17.5% AFAIK).

I was much happier with our first order when $0.89 = 1Euro than our most recent when $1.14 = 1Euro. Even with that huge hit that the dollar has taken and Uhlmann's recent price hikes (January 1st), we're still so much better off ordering direct that it's a no brainer.

That said, I wouldn't mind finding another, cheaper, vendor for club equipment, even if they don't have Uhlmann quality. I've considered Esun and I'd found a Ukrainian manufacturer which I've now lost (Peter- If you have the URL I'd appreciate it). Ordering from overseas was a big step for my club (and a bigger one for the *%&#$%ing university bureaucracy that my club needs to deal with to actually get orders sent out), but now that we've done it we're much better off.

-B :)

[Craig]

oiuyt, are you talking about Dynamo Lugansk?

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
I hope all of that helps. ... if you plan out your order and maybe get a couple of friends to go in with you, you can save a ton!

I dunno... I think I'll stick with Esun. Not.

Thanks for that wonderful post -- fast, comprehensive, informative. It was exactly what I was looking for.

Per oiuyt, the quality does seem to be overkill for club equipment, where beginners bend the blades into U shapes and hit the guy behind them during a lunge. But, as a group-buy for personal equipment for competitive fencers, it really looks like the best option out there.

Also, thanks oiuyt -- I'll also look into Uhlmann. These posts have gone a long way to demystifying over-seas ordering, for me.

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by webmaster
oiuyt, are you talking about Dynamo Lugansk?

Probably. For those interested:
http://www.dinamo-blade.lg.ua

Don't seem to be any prices/ordering info listed.

-B :)

[CvilleFencer]

Wflaschka, glad I could help! Oiuyt thanks for the correction on the VAT!

[Jupiter]

Non clothing items: blades; grips; wires; tips; body cords. In this instance buy from the same manufacturer so you can interchange parts easily.

But you have several categories of fencers:
Beginner - starter kits/or club beginner kits
Middle - student starts to purchase own clothing
strong Middle - competes at local compeitions; buys electric equipment. This is when the student needs more guidance through club presidents/or salle coaches.
Strong competetor: begins to form individual tastes and will want to experiment with different equipment; but if on a team still has to follow coach's advice about purchases.

If you're running a university club, you can follow the same basic pattern above, but when they're ready to compete heavy duty, then maybe your club should pool resources together through a small treasury to purchase team items: blades by the gross, but you would have to make a decision about the kind of blade you want for your club; my france lames blades have still not broken in four years, i have not broken one blade, and people are always on me about fencing too strong.

As for civil's explanation; yes everyone has become more greedy; if one student buys an uhlman mask for 200. and becomes superhero; but another student buys a mask for 80. the difference in the way the student is handled is astounding.

Club due goes into buying wires; screwdrivers and wrenches which all the coaches on staff carry around in their pants pockets and they assist the students with their equipment. The salle armorer does the heavy duty stuff by appointment.

Maybe the club should go that way, and when they're ready to compete on a national level on a regular basis, you buy a gross of expensive blades.

So we see there are several issues: team vs individual, private salles vs university salles; and so forth; however there is still a meeting of the minds on several points.

p.s. i'm starting to feel badly for the chinese manufacturers; maybe we should should ask them to send us a gross to test at nationals [yukyukyuk] what if they all were chineseafied, like they left the wires off and claimed we were wong? will you please stop! we love chinese people, it's their politics! c'mon eric, esunifiy us; you are chinese man, speak to us about it! btw, i tried to do a pastel of you, it looks like another guy, i will try again, later, but i spent the entire evening up to 4:00 in the morning doing a pastel of someone else.