05-13-2003, 09:00 AM
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#1 | | Guest | Fencing with Tennis Elbow Greetings, everyone! I'm looking for advice for one of my students.
Recently, she was diagnosed with lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow). She
wears a brace on her forearm just below the elbow to help. I'm just
wondering what other people have done to help with this when they fence.
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Steve Behrends
Des Moines Fencing Club | |
| | | And now for this message... | |
05-13-2003, 09:00 PM
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#2 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow >
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Behrends
> Des Moines Fencing Club
a clubmate of mine got rid of it by using a softer, larger allstar grip (saber).
this was a tip from his physician and it helped | |
| |
05-13-2003, 09:00 PM
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#3 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow My qualifications: physician, tennis player (USTA 4.0 - low B grade), and
fencer with tennis elbow caused by fencing. My orthopaedic surgeon is the
onsite doc at major tennis tournaments, so he is somewhat of an expert in
tennis elbow. He knew a bit about fencing - his roommate in college was a
fencer.
Different grips can help, although some say get larger, some say get
smaller, at least for tennis. Probably, there is some biomechanical problem
that is causing the symptom, and changing grip changes the biomechanics
enough to get rid of the problem.
For fencing:
REST - Stop fencing. Yeah, yeah. If it is bad, the patient may have to
stop fencing for 6 months or a year. I stopped for 4 months (I had knee
surgery at 2 months), and by the end of my first bout, it was hurting again.
More on that later.
STRETCH - perhaps even ten times per day. With the elbow straight, flex the
wrist (bend it towards the palm) and hold for 30 seconds. Repeat twice. As
you get used to it, rotate the hand into more pronation (palm down, or even
further so that the palm goes all the way to facing out) and bend the
fingers into a fist. Initially, you tend to feel the stretch at the back of
the hand, then the wrist, then the forearm and finally near the elbow.
You should probably also stretch the flexor muscles of the forearm, which
attach to the medial epicondyle. Again, elbow straight. With fingers
straight, and hand in supination (rotate palm up), extend the wrist
passively by pressing up against a wall, or you can just use the other hand
to grab the fingers and bend the wrist back.
EXERCISE - With a dumbbell in the hand, rest the arm across a bench or table
with the hand over the edge, palm down. Bend the wrist up and down lifting
the weight. Do 10-15 repetitions, rest a bit (do the other arm then), and
then another two sets. Do this once or perhaps twice a day. Start with a
low weight, and when you can do 15 reps without pain, increase the weight by
1 pound.
Do the same thing with the palm up, to exercise the forearm flexor muscles.
I am not sure of the clinical justification for this, but the PT and ortho
folks seem to recommend it. There is a version of tennis elbow that is
medial epicondylitis that I have read about by never seen. Perhaps this is
preventive since the patient has already exhibited a tendency to that type
of injury.
And now for the more later. When I went back to fencing and got immediate
symptoms, the symptoms were a bit different, with pain distal to the elbow
in the forearm rather than right at the lateral epicondyle. With Gray's
Anatomy and some poking around, I figured out that it was the muscle
extensor indicus which extends (straightens) the index finger, and perhaps
to some extent the larger muscle that extends all the fingers. A couple of
old fencers knew about this, and suggested a finger extension exercise where
you wrap a rubber band (or two as you get stronger) around the ends of the
fingers and thumb, and work at extending the fingers. If, like me, you have
an index finger problem, isolate that finger and extend just it.
COMPRESSION - Wear the tennis elbow wrap. Some people think this is voodoo,
but the one time I did not wear mine, I hurt for two days afterwards. It
probably does no harm, and it may help.
ICE - Ice it down after exercise, especially after fencing. I have a cooler
in the car with a few blue ice packs and a drink. On the way home, the ice
goes on the arm and the knee, and the drink is good too.
MEDS - Anti-inflammatory drugs are good. Things like ibuprofen (Motrin,
Advil) or naproxen (Aleve). I like naproxen because you only need to take
it twice a day. There are others for which you need a prescription. Do NOT
use them like pain killers. Take them regularly for a while, until the
inflammation has settled. If you get indigestion/heartburn from them, stop
taking them and see a doc.
DOCTOR - sounds like the patient already has one. The doc can prescribe
stronger anti-inflammatories, or pull out (stick in) the big gun of a
steroid injection. Note that some people get a "steroid flare" that makes
it hurt like hell for a couple of days.
FENCING - start slow. Wave the blade around. Easy stuff frequently to
start. The problem is caused by contraction of the muscles that you use for
parry 6, counter 6, or resistance to pressure in that direction. I think
mine started because my parry 4 was too big, and I had to haul the blade
back into line. Instead of parry 6, use a circle 4 parry.
Good luck!
Peter Harrison
"Reptile" <a9600006@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in message
news:67c6a51.0305130700.144bf5b4@posting.google.co m...
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Steve Behrends
> > Des Moines Fencing Club
>
> a clubmate of mine got rid of it by using a softer, larger allstar grip
(saber).
> this was a tip from his physician and it helped | |
| |
05-13-2003, 09:00 PM
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#4 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Steven, svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com wrote:
>
> Any suggestions?
>
Use the other hand.
--
Chris | |
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05-13-2003, 09:00 PM
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#5 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow I had this problem. In addition to the strap, I agree that she should
ice it and avoid counter-6 parries. Using the whole arm instead of
the fingers to make parries and taking the blade strongly can cause
torque on the elbow. Also, she should try using a youth weapon, as
light as possible.
It went away once my technique got better.
"Steven Behrends" <svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<OZ3wa.867222$S_4.888871@rwcrnsc53>...
> Greetings, everyone! I'm looking for advice for one of my students.
>
> Recently, she was diagnosed with lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow). She
> wears a brace on her forearm just below the elbow to help. I'm just
> wondering what other people have done to help with this when they fence.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Behrends
> Des Moines Fencing Club | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 AM
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#6 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow In addition to all of the previous suggestions, I wrap my fingers and thumb
with a rubber band and then open my hand. the flexing against resistance seems
to strengthen the right muscles. I do It alternating hands about 1000 times in
sets of 100 ea. Dont forget the vit C and asst anti oxidants, and anti
inflamatory EFA rich oils like flax borage and evening primrose | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 AM
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#7 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow I tried this. It's really a ****! And after trying it a while
I started getting pain in the left elbow.
j.
Chris Cooke wrote:
> Steven, svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com wrote:
>
>>Any suggestions?
>>
>
>
> Use the other hand.
>
> | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 AM
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#8 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Peter,
Your suggestions appear to me to be excellent but one caveat. When I
first developed tennis elbow I did the slow regime of general
practicioner->physical therapist->general practicioner->sports therapist
and finally an orthopedic surgeon who actually bothered to x-ray the
joint and found I had a spur which had broken off. My point is that
I wasted six months of training time with people who had varying
ideologies as to how to treat the problem before finally getting to
someone who said lets look at it instead of lets treat the
symptoms. Don't know the sufferer's history but strongly suggest
going to an orthopedic specialist early on. And even then you've
got to get lucky.
J.
Peter Harrison wrote:
> My qualifications: physician, tennis player (USTA 4.0 - low B grade), and
> fencer with tennis elbow caused by fencing. My orthopaedic surgeon is the
> onsite doc at major tennis tournaments, so he is somewhat of an expert in
> tennis elbow. He knew a bit about fencing - his roommate in college was a
> fencer.
> DOCTOR - sounds like the patient already has one. The doc can prescribe
> stronger anti-inflammatories, or pull out (stick in) the big gun of a
> steroid injection. Note that some people get a "steroid flare" that makes
> it hurt like hell for a couple of days.
>
>
> | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 AM
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#9 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Jonathan, jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net wrote:
> I tried this. It's really a ****! And after trying it a while
> I started getting pain in the left elbow.
Switch back? A point on each hand seems like a good idea,
really confuse your opponent :-)
On a serious note: If you are getting it in both hands/elbow
there must be something serious wrong.
--
Chris
"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley:
LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
-Jeremy S. Anderson | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 AM
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#10 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in message news:<3EC1C389.2030509@alamedanet.net>...
> I tried this. It's really a ****! And after trying it a while
> I started getting pain in the left elbow.
> j.
>
> Chris Cooke wrote:
> > Steven, svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com wrote:
> >
> >>Any suggestions?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Use the other hand.
> >
> >
I tried it too, but I kept getting a pain in the middle of my chest.
I think this was more to do with my inability to parry, though. Had
to stop because my opponent was laughing too much.
Bye,
Joe | |
| |
05-14-2003, 09:00 PM
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#11 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow "Steven Behrends" <svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:<OZ3wa.867222$S_4.888871@rwcrnsc53>...
> Greetings, everyone! I'm looking for advice for one of my students.
>
> Recently, she was diagnosed with lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow). She
> wears a brace on her forearm just below the elbow to help. I'm just
> wondering what other people have done to help with this when they fence.
>
> Any suggestions?
Clearly, there are a few.
I've had three bouts of fencer's elbow. The first was excruciating,
as I utterly ignored the symptoms until I could barely hold a weapon,
and even holding eating utensils was a painful, embarassing
experience. I was stupid. It took a year of therapy (already
described in this thread) and drugs (naproxen sodium) before I could
fence again. Other friends contracted fencer's elbow, took my case to
heart and got therapy...but it was still 4-6 months before they could
fence pain-free.
Nearly ten years later, as a coach and competitive fencer in 2002, I
came down with it again; this time I had health insurance and was
attending a university with an over-funded, under-utilized Physical
and Athletic Sports Therapy program--what a boon! My PT (A goddess,
sent from heaven above!) did the intake session and said
"Iontophoresis."
"Ionto-what??"
Iontophoresis is a relatively new therapy for epicondylitis, which
uses a weak electrical current to target an anti-inflammatory drug
directly into the joint in question. The drug is applied to the skin
over the joint, and the therapy takes about 20 minutes of sitting
quietly. I did two sessions per week and with that and the usual
physical therapy was pain-free and fencing again in 6 weeks.
Distance!
TC | |
| |
05-15-2003, 09:00 PM
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#12 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Not sure if anyone has pointed this out in previous messages, but make
sure that she deals with all the other causes of epi-thingy in her life.
When I developed it, I got wrist rests for my keyboard _and_ mouse, both
at work and at home.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries | |
| |
05-15-2003, 09:00 PM
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#13 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow In article <OZ3wa.867222$S_4.888871@rwcrnsc53>, "Steven Behrends"
<svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com> writes:
>Greetings, everyone! I'm looking for advice for one of my students.
>
>Recently, she was diagnosed with lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow). She
>wears a brace on her forearm just below the elbow to help. I'm just
>wondering what other people have done to help with this when they fence.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Steve Behrends
>Des Moines Fencing Club
Hey, Steve!
Gads!
Now that you mention it, mine is bugging me, too!
Some further info' might be helpful:
What weapon(s) does she fence?
Is this the first time she has had trouble?
(If not, how long ago, etc...)
Does she feel this was brought on by fencing?
If so, what handle/size does she use?
Also, how long fencing & how much?
It's fairly easy for this to crop up in epee fencers who do a lot of opposition
in sixte a little bit wrong; if you intercept the blade in a disadvantagous
leverage situation, and grip the handle too tightly as you extend and rotate,
it can pit the muscles on the outside of your arm, against the stronger muscles
on the inside; eventually this takes its toll.
Standard reptetitive stress treatments (Peter covered that fairly well...) with
some targeted strength training, along with some technique/timing correction
could be what you are looking for.
Changing handles COULD be something to look at; (unless it's sabre) I am a
little skeptical, though: I am inclined to think that changing handles is
likely to result in gripping more tightly, which I im thinking is part of the
problem to begin with...as long as we're discussing hardware; how much a 'cant'
(offset; advantage; bend ot the tang/hilt) is she using?
Good luck!
PS: did you get my flyer? | |
| |
05-15-2003, 09:00 PM
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#14 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Well I've shifted the mouse to my left hand and that helped somewhat.
But better yet, it irritated everyone who came in and tried to use my
computer. 
j.
Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> Not sure if anyone has pointed this out in previous messages, but make
> sure that she deals with all the other causes of epi-thingy in her life.
>
> When I developed it, I got wrist rests for my keyboard _and_ mouse, both
> at work and at home.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)
> | |
| |
05-16-2003, 09:00 PM
|
#15 | | Guest | Re: Fencing with Tennis Elbow Hi!
One of my friends had that problem too. Our trainer teached her to take the
3rd-parry
instead of the 6th. Now she can go on very well, but it had been a very long
and intense
training. Maybe you could try this.
Good look,
Elisabeth
"Steven Behrends" <svehrendsbhds@mchsi.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:OZ3wa.867222$S_4.888871@rwcrnsc53...
> Greetings, everyone! I'm looking for advice for one of my students.
>
> Recently, she was diagnosed with lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow).
She
> wears a brace on her forearm just below the elbow to help. I'm just
> wondering what other people have done to help with this when they fence.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Behrends
> Des Moines Fencing Club
>
> | |
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