Best Reel System

[Sigurd]

What have you found to be the best reels? Especially in terms of reliability and value for money. I've seen Ulhmann reels used quite a bit, and they seem to be sturdy, but I have had some bad experences with them. How would an Allstar reel conpare, and are there any inexpensive alternatives?

Any answers would be greatly appriciated!

[sparkie]

Sigurd,


1. Uhlman - too expensive, plastic collar for the cord wears out too fast, reel heads have too many f'ing nuts and bolts and the wires have to be laid out exactly as manufactured for the reel heads to fit back together.

2. Allstar - no idea

3. Leon Paul - not bad, but a pain to take apart and hard to find.

4. Favero - So far I'm impressed, they have a brushed steel case, a braking mechanism that slows down accidently released cords and have not shown any problems. Also, they are Cheaper than all the others.

5. Finally, you can make your own reels with pulleys, 1/4 inch bungee cord, and three strand wire (I've seen telephone cord used, uhlman wire, and also PBT has wire for sale fairly cheaply) You can check this thread out for another idea: http://www.fencing101.com/vb/archive/topic/3348.html

Originally posted by Sigurd
What have you found to be the best reels? Especially in terms of reliability and value for money. I've seen Ulhmann reels used quite a bit, and they seem to be sturdy, but I have had some bad experences with them. How would an Allstar reel conpare, and are there any inexpensive alternatives?

Any answers would be greatly appriciated!

[DHCJr]

The Leon Paul is the easiest to repair, but it also needs to be repaired more often. One trick with the Leon Paul is to have a few extra spring cases. If a spring breaks, release the tension, pull out the broken spring case, drop in a new one and fix the broken spring at your leasure. The newest version of the connector to the body cord is the easiest to repair, no soldering. Removing and fixing the commutator is easy, not like the old Uhlmann.

If you ever have a spring break on the Favaro, you are going to be doing a lot of work and have a bigger expense than any other. First you need to desolder 6 connections, and you must replace (not repair) all three springs, not just the one. Then you resolder the 6 connections. Hopefully with the braking system, the springs do not break as easily. It hasn't been out long enough to get a feel for it. The body cord connector is easier to work with than the Uhlmann.

The older Allstar commutator is more difficult to work with than the Uhlmann. Supposedly, if you can get it the new Allstar has the same inside as the Uhlmann, but a metal case.

If you have a permanent location an overhead reel system is very good to have.

[Sigurd]

The Favero reels do sound interesting, though I have never had the oppertunity to try it. Uhlmann reels, as I suspected seem a little to pricey for their breakability, I have definatley noticed that they sometimes don't register hits while the reel is moving, at least among the new ones. As for building your own, does anyone have any plans to follow for a bungee system? Although I am still interested in buying some reels, I would like to try building my own system. Any help with plans would be greatly appriciated.

[neevel]

Originally posted by Sigurd
The Favero reels do sound interesting, though I have never had the oppertunity to try it. Uhlmann reels, as I suspected seem a little to pricey for their breakability, I have definatley noticed that they sometimes don't register hits while the reel is moving, at least among the new ones. As for building your own, does anyone have any plans to follow for a bungee system? Although I am still interested in buying some reels, I would like to try building my own system. Any help with plans would be greatly appriciated.

Can you be more specific about "not registering hits"? That sounds far more like a problem that can be traced to personal equipment than the reel.

Uhlmanns are better at maintaining reliable line continuity than brush-contact reels, which is why they are generally preferred in spite of being time-consuming to work on when they do need maintenance. As noted above, they are a stereotypical example of German over-engineerng (why use just one screw instead of three?), but if you're having to keep a bunch of division reels in working order for tournaments that's generally preferable to having to keep track of a cleaning schedule for Leon Paul reels. OTOH, if you're just thinking of getting a pair for a small club, the ease of maintenance for LP reels might be the better choice.

The older Allstars used a rotating contact post that runs vertically down the center of the reel, and needed to be cleaned more often than the brush-and-commutator arrangement of upright reels like the Leon Pauls. The newer ones (which may be tough to find from US vendors) use a mercotac for the A and B lines, just like the Uhlmann (both the Uhlmann and the Allstar use the main bearing to connect the C-line directly to the metal base). Combine that with a very durable cast metal case that won't get a notch worn into it by the cable, and they look pretty good. They are easier to open up than the Uhlmanns for maintenance, and don't require nearly as much disassembly to perform repairs.

The Faveros look very promising, it's just a matter of people getting enough experience with them to see how well they hold up with use. How well the springs hold up will probably be the most important factor.

There's one more type of reel you may see, which I'll mention and then tell you to avoid, and that is the Russian reel. It's a copy of the Prieur reel (which isn't readily available in the US anymore). This design is very appealing in concept, as it uses a winding arm and pulleys to play the cable off of a stationary spool, thus allowing the cable to be soldered directly to the floor cord socket and doing away with rotating contacts. Unfortunately, the quality of materials and construction is not good (the OEM Russian reel cable is notoriously bad), so they're best passed over.

Even with the cost of shipping and the current US Dollar/Euro exchange rate, you can save a fair amount of money by buying direct from Europe. Fechtsport-Langenkamp in Germany sells Uhlmann and new (Mercotac) Allstar reels, and I believe Favero sells direct, too. You can find them both in the equipment vendor links on this site. Remember to use the non-VAT price to determing what you'd be paying. Langenkamp also has a shipping cost estimator.

-Dave

[R. Exnicios]

The Favero design and price were more than I could resist. We bought a set a few months ago. So far no problems. I'll let you know what I discover.

[DangerMouse]

Has anyone ever used the PBT reels? What type of design do they use (brushed, winding arm, mercotac, etc.)? How well have they held up?

Thanks

-DM

[theodore.norvell]

As for building your own, does anyone have any plans to follow for a bungee system? Although I am still interested in buying some reels, I would like to try building my own system. Any help with plans would be greatly appriciated.

Here is a description of the best bungee system I ever built. This system is designed for gyms that have holes in the floor for volleyball or badminton.

Parts:
* 3 PVC tubes, about 30cm long and about 2 inches in diameter.
(The key thing is that the tubes should just fit in the holes
that volleyball net standards fit in.
* 4 small blocks (aka pulleys)
* 2 metal rings
* 2 15m lengths (min) of cable. This should be flexible and have
at least 3 conductors. More conductors is better, as it means
you have spare paths when there is a break.
* About 20m of 1/8th inch bungee.
* 2 male epee connectors.
* 2 female reel end connectors.

Construction:
* Thread one block on each cable. Do this first.
* Connect the connectors to the wires both electrically and physically.
* Connect the remaining 2 blocks to the tops of
2 of the PVC tubes. I drilled holes in the tubes and used cable ties.
* Connect the two rings to the top of the third tube.
* That's it.

Setup:
* Find 3 holes in a straight line about 9m apart.
* Plunge the PVC tubes into the holes. Obviously the one with
the rings goes in the middle and the blocks at the ends.
* Tie the cables to the rings near their male ends. If the
holes are 9m apart you need about 13 m of cable from the
female end to the tie off point.
* Tie the bungee to the block on one wire. Thread it
through the fixed block at that end, then through the
other block. Tie it to the remaining block.
* Lay out the near edge of the strip at least 1 m away from the 3 holes.
* Check all lengths.
* That's it.

If don't have the central hole and you put your box on a table, you can tie the wires to the table legs. But, this is not recommended as a fleche might lead to a smashed box.

If you always use the same three holes, then you can connect clips onto the cables using cable ties at just the right distance. Then you clip the cables to the rings on the central tube.

I've used phone cable with 4 single filament connectors. This is cheap, but breaks easily, and surprisingly intermittently, which is a real pain, if it is the jacket wire! Next I'm going to try real reel cable. More expensive, but should last.

Sorry for the mixed units. 1 inch is about 2.56 cm.

[SJCFU#2]

First off, it might be worth your while to go to the top of this web page and click on "equipment reviews". Now that the new system is in place I've been able to add reviews on a number of different reels (BTW - can someone else please add some reviews of their own - right now I think I'm the only one putting anything in there under scoring equipment).

Quick summary - Favero reels are relatively new however it's getting to the point where they could challenge the Uhlmann turtles as "the standard". From what I've seen of them they are reliable, but as DHCjr said, they look to be a major pain when they eventually do need some serious repairs.

Uhlmann "turtles" have long been the standard. They rarely need repairs (outside of replacing the plastic block where the wire exits the reel = referred to by Uhlmann as a "segment") however when they do need repairs they can be a bit of a pain. They also have a nasty habit of following their fencer down the strip, usually requiring tape to hold them down.

Allstar reels used to use a contact at the hub however when they redesigned their reels back around 2002 this was replaced with a Mercotac connector, similar to what the Uhlmann reels use. More recently Allstar abandoned their own design of reel and simply started producing their own version of the Uhlmann reel (the only difference is that the plastic is red rather than blue). FWF has picked up Allstar's design and is now producing a reel that uses a Mercotac connector inside a metal case (which seems like it could be promising however I haven't seen enough of them to make any definitive statements).

Leon Paul reels are really easy to take apart and repair however they tend to need a lot more maintenance, especially the newer ones with stainless steel slip rings.

As Neevel says, stay away from Prieur or Russian reels (sometimes referred to as "oysters", "flying saucers" or "land mines"). Electrically they are extremely reliable - so long as the cable holds out. However the number of bends around small sheaves is extremely hard on the cable (Prieur seems to have the only cable capable of standing up to the abuse) and the mechanical problems outweigh any advantages.

The least expensive system by far is probably a bungee system. You can buy one from Tripplette or PBT, or you can make your own (the details have been discussed many times before so I suggest using the search function at the top of this page). Unfortunately bungee cord systems tend to require more care to set up and take down than reels and floor cords so they are most often found in permanent installations.

One final note - Blue Gauntlet is currently selling off Uhlmann reels that had been used at national events for about half the price of a new reel.

Edit: Where to get them (apologies in advance to any vendors I may have overlooked): These days it seems like almost every vendor in the US is carrying Favero reels. Uhlmann reels are only slightly less widely available. Absolute carries"German floor reel in Allstar style" which I'm pretty sure are from FWF (whenever I see them at a tournament I'm tempted to ask if I can open one up and look inside). Blade also lists a "German made Allstar-style reel" which sounds like it might be from FWF but it's difficult be certain. The best source for Leon Paul reels is probably Leon Paul USA, although they are also available from American Fencing Supply and Sword Masters. And if you really want a Prieur reel then talk to Sword Masters (although I wouldn't blame them if they suggested a Favero instead - they list both).

[yeoldearmourer]

You do have problems with the Farvo reels the plastic guide like on the uhlmann it will wear out by the cord rubbing up againist it. Plus the speed brake will also wear as well. replaceing the springs is a pain in the butt. I have repair or replace what i have seen on the favero. One thing you can say about they don't move once in place.

[Barry Paul]

[QUOTE=SJCFU#2;756261]F

Leon Paul reels are really easy to take apart and repair however they tend to need a lot more maintenance, especially the newer ones with stainless steel slip rings.

This is some thing which we are unaware of, we spent months doing wear test with the present set up and this is not a problem in the U.k..

Is there any possibility that USA armorers are more (un-necessarily in my experience) concerned with a litte spool resistance, which they solve by rubbing the contact surface with emery cloth which totally ruins the long term life of the contact set up?

[SJCFU#2]

I don't know of any armorer who opens up a reel simply because the resistance is a little bit higher than the 2.5 ohms specified in m.55.5. They're usually more concerned with spikes in resistance that cause intermittent white lights out on the strip.

My own experience has been that brand new LP reels are good for a time (I think the last set of new LP reels we bought went for about two years before they started having problems). Perhaps it's the maintenance, perhaps it's grease working its way out of the spring cases into other parts of the reel, but once problems start the reels seem to require regular attention.

What I would suggest is a return to the brass commutator rings found in older LP reels. Brass may not be as wear resistant as stainless steel however my experience has been that brass-ringed commutator assemblies will still last for decades and the reels tend to require little maintenance beyond opening the case once every couple of years to wipe up any metal shavings that have accumulated inside (along with the balls of dust that tend to accumulate in there). Plus when the brass commutator rings finally do wear down it doesn't take much longer to open up a LP reel, remove the drum, replace the commutator assembly and put everything back together than it does to replace the Mercotac connector on an Uhlmann reel.

[Inquartata]

As YeOldeArmouer saith, the Faveros will not follow you up the strip the way the others do. You will not have to tape them down, or have someone brace them with a foot. The Uhlmann "turtles" are great, but they are really more like puppies: they want to be with you all the time.

So far the only mechanical problems we've had with ours ( we have 10 ) is that the spring meant to keep the plug from slamming into the reel when released---the one on the cord---sometimes goes into the reel and can jam up the wire feeding. So long as you don't step on them, let the plug go soaring reelward or walk out of the line of the feed too much they seem to be very durable.

[brtech]

Stay away from the PBT reels. They are terrible.

We're all pretty happy with the Faveros. Probably an excellent choice. As mentioned, we don't have quite enough experience to know what the long term problems are. Replacing the brake and the wear guide is pretty easy. The really nice thing is that they don't move when you set them down.

The Uhlmann's are the defacto standard. They last a long time. Replacing the "segment" (plastic wear guide) is straightforward, harder than the Favero, but you roughly never have a problem with anything else besides that and the wire itself. If you got BG to replace the wire, the used Uhlmann's are a good deal.

Leon Paul reels are easy to fix, and need more fixing. The springs break, you get intermittent connections and because the contacts are open (instead of the closed mechanisms in the Uhlmann and Favero) need more general maintenance.

No where near enough experience with the new FWF reel. Looks promising, but we'll see.

Bungees are cheap, and need a lot of maintenance. It's not a bad tradeoff for a club. I recommend you buy good wire. One fine choice is Uhlmann reel wire, but Favero wire and Prier wire also works. Use large pulleys (3").

[Inquartata]

I used some Faveros yesterday that someone had mounted homemade wooden wear guides over the existing wear guide, presumably to preserve the latter. Rather an excess of caution, but probably cheaper than replacing the Favero part and easier to get to boot.

[larkmaj]

When I was a freshman we primarily used old model LP reels. I very quickly learned how to fix them and had to do so quite frequently. We also had a couple division supplied Uhlmans. My experience with both these sets of reels agree with what has been said.

We have since started purchasing favero reels and now have 10 of them. While I very much prefer them over the reels I mentioned above, I have had a couple problems. These mostly involve the fencer end connector that doesn't like to be dropped on the concrete floor we have.

The biggest problem is that hardware likes to fall off this end, mostly the security clip for the bodycord, and I have yet to recover a lost one. The other lost item is the screws that hold in the jacket clip. You lose one screw and you lose the whole clip off the bracket.

Finally, one reel had the issue where one of the sockets on the fencer end separated from the circuit board. The reel cord is soldered to a circuit board which the sockets are attached too. I could not get the socket reattached to the circuit board.

The nice thing is that I was able to purchase replacement parts for all of these issues from Absolute, including the circuit board that even came with ample solder already on the terminals for the reel wire, so it was an extremely easy repair. The only thing I couldn't get was replacement screws for the reel clip, but I found similar machine screws at home depot, and have had no problems with them.

In spite of these problems I strongly recommend Favero reels. The only other issue is that they are quite heavy, but that is more of a good thing than bad (very durable case, doesn't chase you). They are also cheaper than Uhlmann or LP.

[oiuyt]

These mostly involve the fencer end connector that doesn't like to be dropped on the concrete floor we have.

Ack. I'd imagine your fencers' feet don't particularly like hitting the floor either.

-B

[Allen Evans]

Dominion Fencing has owned two sets of the Favero reels for some time, with no issues. I will say, however, if you buy Favero reels and have to transport them, the case (optional) is indespensible. The Faveros are very heavy.

We have a set of Uhlman reels (less than a year old) that we use when we only need one strip at an event, due to their light weight.

AE

[Rockstar44]

Millenium. Hands down!

[DHCJr]

You do have problems with the Farvo reels the plastic guide like on the uhlmann it will wear out by the cord rubbing up againist it. Plus the speed brake will also wear as well. replaceing the springs is a pain in the butt. I have repair or replace what i have seen on the favero. One thing you can say about they don't move once in place.

As YeOldeArmouer saith, the Faveros will not follow you up the strip the way the others do. You will not have to tape them down, or have someone brace them with a foot. The Uhlmann "turtles" are great, but they are really more like puppies: they want to be with you all the time.

So far the only mechanical problems we've had with ours ( we have 10 ) is that the spring meant to keep the plug from slamming into the reel when released---the one on the cord---sometimes goes into the reel and can jam up the wire feeding. So long as you don't step on them, let the plug go soaring reelward or walk out of the line of the feed too much they seem to be very durable.

As YeOldeArmouer said earlier the problem with the Favero will be the plastic guide.

I have enough experience with them now to give a better opinion.

The guide is not placed well, so the wire rubs up against the guide as the wire does not go straight back. This causes a groove like the Uhlmann, BUT you don't know it is happening unless you open it up.

The plastic is soft and as Inquartata said the spring will go into the reel.

Like Tim, I have had to replace the spring and it is not fun. I think the Italian stole the philosophy of the Germans, "Why make it easy to fix, it will never break.

Another problem is the nice flat low-profile top making it easier to store and also easier to stand on. If you see anyone standing on top of a Favero reel get them off immediately. Hitting them with a baseball bat is also an option. I have seen too many jam because the top bent in.

If the connectors break, I would replace it with an Uhlmann or Leon Paul connector. The Faveros, especially the security device are flimsy.

The brakes are a nice feature, but as Tim says they wear and I have seen them jam, especially if the top has been stepped on.

Something that I wish was standard equipment on All reels is a small rubber ball just behind the connector (or the spring on the Favero). It would help.