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muaddib · 05-09-2003, 05:08 AM

It's my believe that fencers don't play by the same rules, meaning everyone has their own idea of what right-of-way is. So I thought I'd toss out a few actions and see how everyone calls it:
Ready?

1) Fencer A makes an advance lunge, fencer B retreats, so that the lunge is short. Fencer B realizing the attack has missed, does a fleche and hits Fencer A, while being touched by Fencer A's point which is still extended. No blade contact is made during the whole set of actions. Who gets the point?

2)Fencers A and B are engard at normal fencing distance. Fencer A jumps back several steps, then precedes to extend his point and run forward. Fencer B seeing Fencer A run forward but still "out of distance", extends his/her point in line and stands his/her ground with a fully extended arm. Fencer A runs forward hitting Fencer B while at the same time impaling him/herself on the point of Fencer B. No blade contact is made on either side. Who gets the point?

rory · 05-09-2003, 06:15 AM

1) Fencer B - A's attack short, Bs attack good. There's been no deliberate establishment of line.

2) Fencer B, as long as you define "run" as continous cross steps, which (see rule book) are a preparation.

kini mini · 05-09-2003, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by muaddib
It's my believe that fencers don't play by the same rules, meaning everyone has their own idea of what right-of-way is

True to an extent, but people also see things differently.

1) Fencer B - same reason as Rory

2) Fencer B should get the point IMO, but in my experience when both lights go off in this situation the person whose feet are moving will usually get the point.

CvilleFencer · 05-09-2003, 07:55 AM

1. A's Attack is short, B's counter lands for the point, A's remise is no. Of course there are judges that will say that A had point in line and therefore give him the point.

2. This is a bit more complicated and a lot of small actions could determine the outcome. For example was the charging fencer extending his arm as he ran however slowly, the whole way down the strip? Also you can establish point in line on the other side of the strip as long it is done. All of that is academic though. No matter what is right the way I think it would get called in my division as A's attack yes, B's counter. Most of the Judges I know favor the aggressor even if they are wrong!

Good experiment by the way! I think you will get a wealth of opinions!

Mischa · 05-09-2003, 08:48 AM

1. B, obviously

2. I'm not so sure. Surely if A's arm is extended then B's stop hit is out of time? Straightening your arm does count as an attack. I would give this to A.

rory · 05-09-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

2. I'm not so sure. Surely if A's arm is extended then B's stop hit is out of time? Straightening your arm does count as an attack. I would give this to A.

See rulebook, t.58.8

Quote:

Continous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another, constitute a preparation, and on this preparation any simple attack has priority

So, as I said above, if your definition of "running" towards the opponent is in fact running in the normal sense of the word, legs crossing one another, then I'm afraid it simply doesn't matter if your arm is extending or not - you're preparing.

Same reason you want the fleche to stop ASAP - after that first crossstep you run the risk of getting caught on prep.

Katman · 05-09-2003, 09:14 AM

I believe both touches would go to fencer A.

1. Fencer A lunged which makes me assume he or she had established point in line (I don't see why on earth someone would lunge without extending first). Lunge finishes, point-in-line is still there, Fencer B runs into it during the course of his or her flesche without taking care of Fencer A's point. Therefor, Fencer A should be awarded the touch. I'm assuming this is a double light, correct?

2. Fencer A began the extension first and thus had right of way. The FIE rule states that an attack is established by '..extending the arm and continously threatening the valid target area..' The key word is extend-ing. Ing. Since A began extending first during the course of his attack I think the touch would be his or hers. I'm not too sure about this one.

haggis · 05-09-2003, 09:35 AM

Nice work Muaddib!!

Fencer b gets the hit both times

CvilleFencer · 05-09-2003, 09:43 AM

Katman makes a good point, but this is foil and all come sdown to your point of view!

1. If fencer A crossed his legs (a step over or a run) then he invalidated his own ROW and made the whole run down the strip preperation. USFA T56.8 by the way.

2.If B conducts a simple attack or a simple attack with a lunge or fleche into the prep of A it is his touch. I think! :-)

Now the real question is if it would ever get called this way!

jeff · 05-09-2003, 09:48 AM

In #1 I would say A, at least in foil. Fencer A lunges and leaves an extended point in line, and B impales himself on it. The attack didn't miss, it was short, which permits point in line. If he made a remise, then that's a different story. I've seen this called frequently, including in my own bouts, and I've called it this way.

In #2, as described by Rory: running forward is not a continuous attack.

muaddib · 05-09-2003, 10:15 AM

I have to leave now, so I'll just put in my 2 cents.

Most danish fencers would answer 1)B 2)A.

I, on the other hand say:

1) A - like Jeff and Katman said, Fencer A is still in line and still threatening target. Who says just because you stop that you can't make another lunge? I argue this weekly at my club, since I like to lunge short and then lunge or advance again when my opponent thinks I'm going to pull back. But sometimes my opponent fleches before I make any additional action, saying I was finished!

2) B - an attack out of distance doesn't have right-of-way until it is in distance, and if the opponent has a point-in-line, even if it came after the start of the long attack, it has right-of-way. This action happens alot here as well, because some of the coaches teach the fencers to jump back, or cross over retreat to open the distance and then come forward with their extending arm and long multiple advances, cross-over whatever they want. I feel that they should have to remove my point-in-line. Since I never get this call, I've given up trying, (learn to fence the director, right?).

Let's hear some more opinions!

graphixaddict · 05-09-2003, 10:15 AM

no touch in either case, they all get yellow cards.
Graphix (jk)

CvilleFencer · 05-09-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jeff
In #1 I would say A, at least in foil. Fencer A lunges and leaves an extended point in line, and B impales himself on it. The attack didn't miss, it was short, which permits point in line. If he made a remise, then that's a different story. I've seen this called frequently, including in my own bouts, and I've called it this way.

It can be a bit tricky to call, but think about this. A's attack was short BECAUSE B retreated, IE body voided, the attack and that is a type of parry. At least that is my understanding and T56.A alludes to this in saying that an attack must be parried or COMPLETELY AVOIDED and that the phase must be followed through. Of course I am a horrible judge in all things but epee!

Mischa · 05-09-2003, 11:03 AM

Yeh, in example 1 fencer A misses the initial attack and makes no attempt to recover. As SOON AS his inital attack misses the right of way is forfeited. The hit belongs to B.

In example 2 I still stand by my original decision, as long as A is not crossing over his feet (could someone clarify if he/she is?). Clearly, Cville, the whole point of foil fencing is to hit without being hit. A hit onto someone when they have not only an extended arm but are also moving forward threateningly is a poorly timed stop hit. A is moving forward, A has a straight arm; B must parry before reposting. The hit belongs to A.

CvilleFencer · 05-09-2003, 11:30 AM

I would be agreeing with you Mischa except for one thing... I can't invision someone running without crossing their feet. I would think that would just be advancing quickly! :-)

If he A DID NOT cross his/her feet and DID begin his/her arm extension BEFORE B then it is his/her point, but if B established point in line while A was retreating or A crossed his feet in his "run" I would say it is B 's touch.

We are proving the Muaddib's point though aren't we?

Mischa · 05-09-2003, 11:50 AM

Agreed.

I think this could form a basis of a computer game...fencers acting out moves (a prerecorded video or CGI movie) and then the user has to say who's hit it is.

Better still, it could be a sub section of a true, 3D fencing game.

I see dead people · 05-09-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rory
1) Fencer B - A's attack short, Bs attack good. There's been no deliberate establishment of line.

2) Fencer B, as long as you define "run" as continous cross steps, which (see rule book) are a preparation.

Yes, but there is another problem: how do you distinquish the end of feet-corssing from the beginning of a lundge? Just because a fencer crossed his feet 5 seconds ago doesn't mean that that rest of his actions there on are preparations. So the counter attack has to catch the attacker crossing his feet And of course that is just another can of worms. Some directors are slower in the head than the others; if you crossed your feet or pulled your arm back, then the next 5 - 10 seconds you are screwed, because whatever you do, he'll call it a preparation.

I see dead people · 05-09-2003, 02:01 PM

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Was there egg first, or chicken first?

Who killed JFK?

jeff · 05-09-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mischa
Better still, it could be a sub section of a true, 3D fencing game.

Well - it already is! Played out at every competition, and electronically, too.

In #1, Fencer A can lunge and establish a line. In 1999-2000 edition of USFA rules, see t.56 #6: "If the attack is initiated when the opponent is 'point-in-line' (cf. t.10), the attacker must, first, deflect the opponent's blade." In t.60 : "2. Only the fencer who attacks is counted as touched (a) If the fencer initiates his attack when the opponent has point in line (cf. t.10) without deflecting the opponents weapon"

FWIW, t.7 says the parry is the defensive action made with the weapon to prevent an offensive action arriving." (I would put a preposition like from before "arriving" but that's another issue for grammarians on this board to argue about). A retreat is not a parry, by the definition, as the weapon wasn't involved.

BTW, t.56 #8 gives the part about crossing the legs being a preparation.

corinna2u · 05-09-2003, 02:19 PM

On the first one: B gets the touch, no doubt.

Based on t.75, A's step-forward lunge validity of touch ends with the front foot landing on the strip. Then B established right-of-way. B's touch.

When doing multiple lunges, my understanding is you would have to make sure you that you have established your right-of-way at the end of one lunge and before starting the next. And, with no blade action or touch, if the opponent extends his arm during or immediately after your lunge, he gets the right-of-way when your front foot lands.