Fencing Action, You call the touche

[I see dead people]

More problems. How do you definite "when front foot lands"? Is it the instant when any part of the foot touches the floor? Or is it when the attackers momentum comes to a stop?
If you say the attack ends at the instant when any part of the foot touches the floor, then what if the attacker simply attack by extending the arm without making a lundge?
If you say the attack ends when the momentum of the attacker stops, then it is simply to arbitrary.

What is it that Old Billy said?

Yeah, so don't take ROW think too serious, just fence for fun and you will get the most out of it.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by I see dead people
I hate lawyers.

Then I would recommend epee! :-)

[corinna2u]

I was dealing with the lunge or advance-lunge.

[I see dead people]

Also, I would like to suggest a third option: Simultaneous for both cases.

It would be valid just as much as any other call.

[I see dead people]

Originally posted by corinna2u
I was dealing with the lunge or advance-lunge.

So what if the attacker simply lifts his front foot and don't ever put it down, does his attack last indefinitely?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by I see dead people
So what if the attacker simply lifts his front foot and don't ever put it down, does his attack last indefinitely?

His/her tempo/fencing phase would expire and he/she would lose his/her right to attack.

[jeff]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Based on t.75, A's step-forward lunge validity of touch ends with the front foot landing on the strip. Then B established right-of-way. B's touch.

t.75 is for sabre (I was careful to hedge my first post by mentioning foil!). All it does is define how an action is correctly executed, which is necessary for defining the terms used later: t.75 does not say anything about right of way! However, t.76 and t.80 say the same thing as t.58 and t.60 said for foil. The attacker must deflect a point in line in both weapons. You can extend, lunge, and leave the point in line.

[I see dead people]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
His/her tempo/fencing phase would expire and he/she would lose his/her right to attack.

and where on the rule book does it say how long is a fencing tempo?
if you can't tell me how many seconds it is, then it is arbitrary.

[Sabresque]

1) B
2)A

I think. Of course, I fence sabre, and I'd have to actually see the timing of the actions.


Now here's a fun one. I've noticed that (especially in sabre) that people have MANY different ideas of what constitutes a point in line attack.

I have heard that:

• You must step back and be in advance lunge distance to put out line
• You may not advance or retreat with line
• You may not advance with line
• You may not retreat with line
• you may not lunge with line
• One director told me I lost line because I made disengages (They were with the fingers!) !!

Which do YOU think are true?

[I see dead people]

Originally posted by Sabresque
1) B
2)A

I think. Of course, I fence sabre, and I'd have to actually see the timing of the actions.


Now here's a fun one. I've noticed that (especially in sabre) that people have MANY different ideas of what constitutes a point in line attack.

I have heard that:

• You must step back and be in advance lunge distance to put out line
• You may not advance or retreat with line
• You may not advance with line
• You may not retreat with line
• you may not lunge with line
• One director told me I lost line because I made disengages (They were with the fingers!) !!

Which do YOU think are true?

face it. the truth is, ROW is so arbitrary, it is possible to argue for all of th cases you've mentioned.

assuming I made those blunder calls
and here is what the explanations I would use to make them perfectly legit[*]You may not advance or retreat with line
I'd say your retreat/advance looked like evasive maneuvers. [*]You may not retreat with line
same as above[*]You must step back and be in advance lunge distance to put out line
I am assuming you meant a beat attack doesn't put out line? If that's the case, then I'd say you did beat, but his remise was in time.[*]you may not lunge with line
your point was not pointing at the valid target area when you lunged[*]You may not advance with line
same as above[*]One director told me I lost line because I made disengages
You were searching for your opponents blade.

[corinna2u]

A step-forward lunge is considered AN attack. I have not found it explicitly stated, but in context, that is how it is used.

When two lights:
t.60 1. Only the fencer who is attacked is counted as touched:
(b) If, instead of parrying, the fencer attempts to avoid the touch and does not succeed in so doing.

In the example given: A attacks. B does avoid the attack instead of parrying. B established 'point in line'. B attacks with fleche. B gets touch.


(Yes, I did notice afterwards that I accidently used the Sabre rule; but I must say, it does clarify when the lunge and step-forward lunge end.)

I do not find tempo...but t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple fencing action.

[jeff]

As much as I really enjoy point in line (especially when tired), the conflicting opinions about it - and you have to know which of those opinions the director has! - show why it's so risky to use. You can see the exact same action called several different ways.

If I recall correctly, several years ago the Word From On High finally came out to say that advancing or retreating should have no effect on point in line. I think there was a reference to this somewhere else on the board. It's risky nonetheless, and you might not get it called in your favor no matter what.

The director might also interpret a new motion on your part as making a remise. Even in the case of the disengage - the director might have felt it was a new action. I wouldn't if the other guy was looking for your blade. In that case you performed derobement, and the right of way passes to you even if you had no PIL before.

PIL and similar are risky!

For a good but too brief discussion, go to the usfencing.org site, click on 'Committee Websites', then 'Fencing Officials Commission', then FAQ, and read the examples there. Especially, "If Sue was immobile, beyond lunge distance, in the On Guard position, and advanced after Mary had finished her lunge, Mary established a POINT IN LINE". Mary is the "Fencer A" in our example #1, which is why Fencer A should get the touch

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by I see dead people
and where on the rule book does it say how long is a fencing tempo?
if you can't tell me how many seconds it is, then it is arbitrary.

Well golly gee whiz I guess you proved us all wrong! Pack it all up guys, cause Iseedeadpeople just figured out that some things in ROW depend on how the judge interprets the action! Can you believe that every single action that can happen in a fencing match is not spelled out exactly! What is the USFA thinking!

Imagine that! I guess all this time trying to determine what is correct and get a better understanding of the rules is just wasting time cause it will depend on your judges point of view and that is so arbitrary! Boy you sure have saved us all a lot of time!

[I see dead people]

ha ha
thx you are all welcome!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by I see dead people
ha ha
thx you are all welcome!

Sorry if I was a bit overly snide in the last post. You are indeed correct that ROW is dependent upon the point of view of the director, but by understanding the rules to the best of our ability and learning to try to figure out what the idiot in the suit is talking about we can more easily adapt our fencing styles to his/her liking. IMHO anyway!

I think that the wide range of interpretations of an action was the point of the post to begin with. It is actually a great point of frustration for me, this vagueness in foil, and as such I am going to be focusing on epee this coming season! I think it will be good for my fencing and my blood pressure if I do not have to be pulled off of novice/bad directors every other tourney!

[CarlKnoch]

1) B

2) B

[haggis]

Sabresque

Or none of the above!

2001 FIE Referees Committee offered further guidelines for Point in Line beyond what is given in the rules. Arm must be straight and remain straight, threatening target in the high line. Hit can be made stationary, moving forward or backward. Retains priority until blade is parried, beaten or prise de ferred.

Hope that helps next time your arguing case with an unsympathetic referee.

[NJP3]

Originally posted by rory
See rulebook, t.58.8



So, as I said above, if your definition of "running" towards the opponent is in fact running in the normal sense of the word, legs crossing one another, then I'm afraid it simply doesn't matter if your arm is extending or not - you're preparing.

Technically, the only two things that constitute an attack are a lunge and a fleche. So your right running at your opponet doesnt carry ROW. This is also why when you fleche you want to hit before your back foot lands, other wise you dont have ROW once it lands, however I have never seen it called like that

[haggis]

NJP3

Nah. Attack is attack because of what the arm and point do. An attack can be made without foot movement, with a step, with a lunge, with a step-lunge or a fleche and will have right of way.

Regards

Haggis

p.s. You're right about the fleche thing in foil though. I have seen it given that way in sabre occasionally

[CarlKnoch]

Speaking of point-in-line, does anyone know exactly WHEN it becomes established as point in line?

I've already been told that the arm must be straight out threatening high line target for a full beat (tempo, action) prior to the attack coming at it.

So if I start to extend my arm as my opponent is in the middle of an advance, and my arm becomes locked out just before he finishes that advance with a lunge, it's his attack, and I never had point-in-line established, and so it's his attack, my counter.

Has anyone read the rule on that as I can't find it in the USFA rules. It's vague as to when point-in-line becomes established and how long it must be established before it gains you ROW.