Should the forum be used to discuss ISSUES?

[omaoligain]

In a recent discussion thread it was recently suggested to me that it is inappropriate to use the forum to air issues about specific directors or fencers.

It was suggested that it is cowardly. (I assume due to the annonymity" that the internet provides.)

And it was suggested that it might hurt feelings if the individuals mentioned might read the posts.

First let me acknowledge that I did stray from the original subject way too much in the thread in question, it was not something that I planned.

And I do not advocate the unproductive, immature ranting that "fencingsucks.com" is famous for.

But I do believe that we are all responsible for our own behavior, and if I was to pull off my mask and throw it across the room and give the director the finger I would deserve to see "Hey, can you believe that Omaoligain? He threw his mask and flipped of the ref at the tournament last week. What a jerk!"

And if a director does not understand the rules and improperly disqualifies a fencer because his socks are green, it is appropriate to discuss that issue and include the name of the director.

I think that this would be a whole lot more usefull and interesting than "what is your favorite fencing scene in a movie?

What do you think?"

[darius]

It's a public forum, post what you want?

If it's truly offensive, it'll probably be deleted.

But kvetching about Fencer Excluded or Referee X is no different than lambasting members of the FIE and IOC, except that Referee X might just be reading this. And if you thought you couldn't buy a ROW call earlier...

There's nothing that protects a person from public scorn on the Internet. Just don't cross into libel territory, because anonymous or not, you're still responsible for your actions.

darius

[epeemike81]

My feeling is that if you are going to badmouth a ref (deserved or not), you should at the very least be willing to put your name to the comments. if you are unwilling to put a name to the comments, I'd say its a warning sign that you don't REALLY feel its appropriate to post them.

As long as you are willing to take responsibility, I say post what you want. Obviously, you are free to post what you want without taking responsibility, but I, personally, will have significantly less respect for such posts, and will give them significantly less weight.

Btw, for the three or four of you who don't already know, my name is Michael Eskin.

-m

[KBayDog]

Good call, EM81.

Ours is a sport of honor and respect. We should conduct ourselves with such honor and respect both on AND off the piste.

If you have an issue with an individual, do not hide behind your mask. If you have the courage to post something about an individual, have the courage to let the world know who you are.

But that is just one man's suggestion.

[retardedspleen]

I dont see anything wrong with posting something bad about somebody, and using there name, as long as you yourself are willing to let us all know your name.

I see it like this, if you can say something behind somebodys back, you should at least have the respect to say that same thing to the persons face. reguardless of how rude, and or inappropriate.


Chris T.

[Peach]

Gee, I prefer to have them say it behind my back, myself. Much easier that way.

[CvilleFencer]

IMHO as long as the complaints against the person are not an attack but an air of views or opinions regarding that persons official capacity, a type of peer review or user feedback if you will, then let free speech rein. If said comments become personal attacks with no other purpose than to harm or humiliate the person in question, then they should be removed or blocked and the person should be warned that this type of behavior is not appropriate for this board.

If that does not work after a few times, ban them for a while. At least that is how I would handle it.

But Cville, you say, how do we know when something has gone too far and blurred the lines? (Cville looks penitent and glances skyward) fortunately we do not have to worry ourselves overly much with such issues. If one infringes on the bounds of good taste the great and power One known as the Craig will make himself known, and you will know that his name is the Craig when he lays his vengeance upon the!

Example of (IMHO) inappropriate comments: In the VA Division there is this tall fat F*** that has his mask painted like a demon or some freaking comic book character! This guy is a joke! He hits too hard and just can't fence for sh*t. Somebody needs to shove the F***ing mask up his fat a$$!

Example of appropriate comments: In the VA Division there is a really big guy that has his mask painted like a demon or something. I think that painted masks are very distracting and should not be allowed what do you think? He also hits way to hard and has slow attacks. I think he should focus more on his skills than painting his mask.

At least that is my opinion on the whole thing. I do not necessarily like naming names of the person in question as that seems likely to be embarrassing and not constructive to the person. If the post is written correctly the person in question will know who he is anyway, so why add the potential for embarrassment... unless that was the purpose all along.

What do you think?

[MikeHarm]

I like the first version better, its more entertaining.

But as for director's disqualifying someone for having green socks, I'd of appealed to the bout committee on that one. Is that a true story and which tourney was it at?? I've heard of the director who duck-taped a guys socks to his leg but this is a story I haven't heard yet.

[Peach]

I had a director duct-tape my trousers up in mid-bout, but I didn't object.

[135711]

I think it depends upon what the issue is, and how you approach it. For example a while ago, I had a problem with a person and so I brought the issue to the board, basically to see if I were:

1. wrong
2. basically right
3. advice on how to handle it;
4. move to the south of france and fence there
5. switch weapons
6. right

But you can't use a person's name. The only time I posted a first name, was to let the person know, that in that particular instance, he was innocent.

When the person is guilty, I never use their name, only when they've done something good, then I say "that was great epeemike81".

If you use the persons name it opens him or her up to lots of repercussions not only from fencers but from anyone who logs onto the board. So, it is sort of cowardly to publicly print someones full name for that reason.

p.s. nice photograph Peach! look at those legs, btw, you can lunge; i have to get my *** in gear, my lunge isn't as strong as it should be, engarde peach [except you fence saber - rats] do you fence any epee at all?

[retardedspleen]

its one thing if its slander, or your out right attacing a person, but even if you do...if your going to flame somebody go ahead, you could just as easly do it in person, in a chat room, over the phone, or if you were gutsy enough pick up a mic at some tournament. but if your gunna flame, you better be ready to take whats commen back, and not just from that one person, but from everybody else too. if i said "Chris triplett f*ing sucks at reffereeing foil! he missed all but 1 call, and he smells bad" then i sure as hella better be ready to take whats commen back. why keep your opinions of somebody sceret? what do you have to hide? are you afraid of being judged? its not trash talk if your simply speaking your opionion, when somebody says "oOo fencer X slept with refferee Y" i dont want to hear X's and Y's i want names, its gossip. As for other people seeing it, oh well, you think they dont otherwise talk smack about the person (and use the persons name) over AIM or MSN or phone or whatever device they use? i talk with over 80 different fencers on AIM...word gets around, about everything, even really really private things. When i hear it, i tell my friends, and they tell there friend, its just gossip, wether it be on here, or on soemthing else

maybe you dont want somebody to start attacking a small kid, i can imagine that. or attacking a parents kid. but this isnt a happy go lucky world where everything is happy and goofy, there are some seriouse things, and names dont hurt, i dont get upset when people talk about me, and i would expect the majority of us wouldnt either......... Michael Eskin is an epee fencer! and i dont like to watch epee! *gasp* oh no....i used a name.....i doubt that mike will go up in arms cause i have a conflicting opionion with him.

I hope all of that made sense (im a little tired tonight)

oh, and Peach, i was there, I remember watching them tape you up, i dont remember when or, what tournament it was though, but it was funny as hell!


Chris Triplett

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by retardedspleen
i doubt that mike will go up in arms cause i have a conflicting opionion with him.

hehe.....

clearly, you don't know me very well.

-m

[DanInMI]

I don't think that it would be acceptable to "flame" a person. That is non-productive.

But I think that it is perfectly reasonable to use a person's name AND remain annonymous. It may FEEL cowardly to do so, but it is only practical, especially when discussing directors. I know that I , for one, would never come on and post a negative thing about a referree on a forum like this and put my last name to it if i knew that he was going to see that last name across my back (or any of my family member's backs) sometime in the future. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't DESERVE to have his actions discussed.

Of course it would be wrong to make stuff up that isn't true, but that is not what we are talking about, we are talking about talking about TRUE events, or at least the presenters perception of the truth, and I think that is fine.

And actually, if the director does come across a discussion of his performance on a forum like this he might get some insight into how he , or she, is perceived. If the guy that made the fencer change his socks came on here and saw his name in a forum he might learn that a fencer may wear ANY color socks....and never make that mistake again.

(MikeHarm--- That did happen. i don't know about the color but the opponent compained that the socks were distracting and the director made the person change them. The fencer did not have enough experience with the rules to challenge it.)

I was a manager for a major retailer for several years. We regularly solicited annonymous feedback from our employees because we knew that we were more likely to get honest, usefull, impressions from our employees if they did not have the fear of retaliation.

[DanInMI]

BTW Peach.....It looks like you enjoyed that duct taping WAY too much!
lol

[DanInMI]

I like cvillefencer's examples of appropriate comments...evry good examples.

But why not use a name when appropriate?

example: "At the Excalibur tournament Joe Doe was carded by John Smith for falling down. I thought that the rules stated that it was no longer a cardable offence if you fall down. Was the director correct?"

"In several other bouts John Smith made the call that the attacker was "searching." Is searching a call? Evidently he felt that the attacker was attempting to beat attack, but couldn't find the blade....."

I see NOTHING wrong with that. And I bet we would soon notice the same names popping up over and over and over.

[DJ Apostrophe]

The duct-taping...
is that Pomme de Terre? It looks like the brandies gym... and the stooped figure looks like Dave Blake... And duct taping seems like a reasonable thing to attribute to him... was it?
-w

[CvilleFencer]

DanInMI thanks for the kind comments. I guess the no naming names opinion is really up to your discretion. My dislike of it comes from a recent experience on the board.

I was trying to pay a compliment to a friend on the board using his skill and rapid rise as an example, but the way I phrased my comments offended him, and I felt bad for it as my attempt at a compliment had bothered someone. It probably would not have been as bad if I had not used the person’s name. It is hard to tell how the written word will be taken and hard to convey when you are joking, angry, or none of the above. The smilies help and all, but still.

I just think I would hate to see my name up on the board in a negative light and would feel compelled to come out swinging or just be plain angry at being publicly embarrassed. That means of course that I would likely:

1. Disregard the comments of the person that offended me as a Jerk and or blood enemy and learn nothing from what he said.

2. Be to upset to be objective about the (hopefully) constructive criticism being offered.

3. Get involved in an unproductive and hurtful flame war like the knuckleheads at fencingsucks seem to enjoy so much.

That is just my opinion of course. I guess it really comes down to you own point of view, but I would hope that everyone would take a second to put themselves in the position of the person the critique is about before they posted a name. After all we all have bad days!

[Peach]

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
The duct-taping...
is that Pomme de Terre? It looks like the brandies gym... and the stooped figure looks like Dave Blake... And duct taping seems like a reasonable thing to attribute to him... was it?
-w

Bingo!

You got it.

[CarlKnoch]

I think that in a semi-private forum like this, you should feel free to post what you want to post. Sure it may be stricken as something the moderator doesn't approve of. That's his right as the owner. This is not a public place as far as I'm concerned. It's the house of the moderator, and we should respect his house as honored guests when speaking.

I also think that anyone who doesn't post their real name in their profile should be ignored on all issues. I have a reason for this....
They aren't real people to me. They're just words on the screen, and until they put a name to themselves, they don't count as a real person to me.

I know that's a little harsh, but it's my honest opinion. I know that some people say it's not safe to have your name posted on the internet because of all the weirdos out there. Yes, I think there are some strange ones out there, and if I'm ever harassed by them, I'll call the police and take care of things. That's what law enforcement is all about. Stories of lurkers stalking people they met on the internet are truly the exception, not the rule when you consider the millions of folks out there online.

I think that people trying to stay anonymous online is one of the true tragedies of the internet age. It just shows how scared everyone is in their own little self-made PC prisons. Back when you had to talk face to face to share an opinion, it was more honest. You had a chance to talk things out with someone who had a name, a life, even a face. We've taken away the face, the life, but I refuse to keep my name out of it. I refuse to live the lie of a separate "cyber life" when I would much rather just integrate that into my regular life.

And just in case any of you think you're really anonymous, go to www.switchboard.com and try searching for yourself with that service. I'm posted there.

And even with my name posted out there with my address and my phone #, I don't get harassing mail, calls, or visits. (Other than those damn phone and credit card companies!! There should be a law!)

I consider this forum to be an extended fencing family of sorts. There are people here that I know to be real people because they share their names with me. There are some that I will continue to ignore because they are not real people to me. I don't flame them, I just ignore them quietly, politely. For all those who are real people to me, I hope to meet you all someday. At Summer Nationals this year (my first and I'm excited about it) I was planning on wearing the fencing.net t-shirt my wife got me. Feel free to look me up and ask me my name so you can start to put a face to the name online. That's how aquaintances are made, and sometimes friendships.

And yes, CVillefencer said something about me on here once that when I read it, it pissed me off. It came across wrong, and he didn't mean it as he said it. We talked about it face to face and he explained it later, and it's fine now. It would have been fine even if he hadn't explained it though, I have thicker skin than that. We aren't blood enemies and we get along well. We fence together regularly just like always and the comment is water under the bridge, just as it should be.

Of course these are just my opinions....

"If we shadows have offended, Think but this, and all is mended: That you have but slumbered here, While these visions did appear;"

If offended, just pretend that it was all a dream, and move on....

[DanInMI]

Ummm Carl....
I don't show up on switchboard.com. Switchboard.com is just a phonebook. If you have an unlisted number you aren't there.