coaches

[star00girl]

i dont know why i posted a thread on this but i just had to say that my fencing coach is sooooo funny. His name is Zoran Tulum and everytime you do something right he says "oompa!" If you put your hands in your pockets he makes you do 10 pushups.

[haggis]

Most coaches are funny. Some are funny (ha, ha), others are funny (peculiar). Some say "oompa", some say "bravo", some don't say anything unless you mess up.

Regards

Haggis (a funny (peculiar), "bravo"-type coach)

[lfortier]

Yeah, some are like that. Just curious what do you think is the best/most effective type of personality a coach could have?

[CvilleFencer]

One that is able to alter his motivational techniques to suit the temperment of his students.

[wflaschka]

I started coaching a while back, and I've brought a few students past basic positioning, moves and handwork. We're getting into actual fencing stuff, which requires intensity. I don't get into the whole screaming/berating thing, and while I think hitting is useful for some coaches, it's not my approach.

[EDIT: Um, yeah, let me be clear about the word "hitting". Non-vicious, used sparingly. A tap with the point. Used with mature fencers who immediately understand the lesson. Psychological tool, not a pain tool. (I know of other types of hitting, but I don't understand or condone them.)]

The problem is that these students are newish, and have never really "opened up" during an attack. They don't have any intensity whatsoever, really. They don't see that they're actually holding back. As a coach, one ought to be able to do more than drone, "Focus your intensity. Sir! Get more intense."

There's that quote from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: No growth without resistance. How do other coaches get that intensity out of their fencers? How much resistance can a coach offer? Is it better to be challenging? Or new-agey and understanding? How do coaches get fencers to fight!?

(Yesterday, I listened (with some jealousy) about 2 new coaches for an under-13 gymnatics team. They are (I hear) driving and ambitious, loud, constructively abusive. The kids love them, attendence is up, they just won the state championships.)

[Mo]

Originally posted by wflaschka
while I think hitting is useful for some coaches, it's not my approach.

The problem is that these students are newish, and have never really "opened up" during an attack. They don't have any intensity whatsoever, really. They don't see that they're actually holding back. As a coach, one ought to be able to do more than drone, "Focus your intensity. Sir! Get more intense."

There's that quote from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: No growth without resistance. How do other coaches get that intensity out of their fencers? How much resistance can a coach offer? Is it better to be challenging? Or new-agey and understanding? How do coaches get fencers to fight!?

(Yesterday, I listened (with some jealousy) about 2 new coaches for an under-13 gymnatics team. They are (I hear) driving and ambitious, loud, constructively abusive. The kids love them, attendence is up, they just won the state championships.)

Hitting is NEVER EVER useful, it is abuse. I am glad you don't do it but wish you could see it for what it is.

As far as the gymnastics goes, it is an insane sport. The girls in gymnastics are programmed to put up with crap. Their parents put up with crap. It is a cruel sport.

My kids have really wonderful coaches. They both have excellent senses of humor. They don't hit, they don't abuse. They both really enjoy being around the kids.

They get the best out of the kids by using respect and being a partner with the kids. Learning is the fencer's responsibility and it is the coach's to be there for the answers.

Kids do best when they have some control and imput over the process and can decide what they want and how they want to go about it.

The best thing a coach can do is LISTEN to the kid.

What do you want out of this?
How can I help you get there?
Do you learn best by me showing you how or explaining things to you?
Finding the right coach makes all the difference, it takes some serious looking. But, if you are going to spend the money and time it takes to be an excellent fencer, seriously consider the coach and how he or she relates to your kids.
If your potential coach resents being asked any questions, RUN.

[wflaschka]

Hi Mo -- thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Originally posted by Mo
Hitting is NEVER EVER useful, it is abuse. I am glad you don't do it but wish you could see it for what it is.

Possibly "hit" is a charged word.

FWIW, I feel I have a very clear understanding of the role of surprise in the training of a (near-)combat sport. I've seen it done well, I've seen it done badly. The issue is interesting, and won't be solved by a simple hitting = evil syllogism. In life, yeah; in fencing, meh.

By "hit", I mean a tap in-time that will disclose to the student a fatal flaw in technique. It's good about once every 3 months, to make a point that the student learns immediately, making them a safer and more successful fencer.

Going old-school, even the more vicious variety of correction is useful, depending on the coach-student dynamic. Purported Csaba Elthes quote: "I hit fencers so they associate mistakes with pain." He made some incredible fencers over the years, and was a nasty old man, beloved by his students. I will never go his route; it bothered me a little too much, though his students laughed at me about it.

But those students were mature adults, and they recognize the technique for what it is. I see no benefit whatsoever in trying any psychological junk with children (under 13).

They get the best out of the kids by using respect and being a partner with the kids. Learning is the fencer's responsibility and it is the coach's to be there for the answers.

Spoken like a parent. LOL. In my classes, I started by shouting to be heard over the children. (Really, screams of fright, because kids are so unthoughtful and undisciplined they can be horribly dangerous to each other. I'd forgotten.) Then, I discovered that speaking in a low voice draws attention. I'm still learning... like, never ask what kids want to learn ("Soccer!!"). I'm in agreement with most of your comment -- it's what I'd want for my children.

Anyways, my original question was about next-level fencers, how to build intensity when everything else is solid.

[Mo]

Originally posted by wflaschka
Hi Mo -- thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Anyways, my original question was about next-level fencers, how to build intensity when everything else is solid.

You are most welcome.
Ok next level fencers. The answer? Competition. Get those kid fencing each other. Have nightly individual tournaments. Make teams and have team tournaments.
When the kids are fencing for themselves it is one thing but when the team is down 6 points the intensity will bleed out their pores.
Don't use a reward system for winning the tournaments either, winning is it's own reward.
Doing team tournaments in the club is also a good way for kids to get along. If there are rivals in the club putting them on the same team can work wonders.

[haggis]

wflaschka

Mo is right up to a point. Competition will help the fencer to appreciate what the lessons are for. In the lesson themselves the coach needs to make the conditions more realistic, once the technique is good. Faster, smaller actions from the coach, more movement, parry the fencer's attempt to hit if it's poorly executed or not delivered realistically. But do remember with new fencers - technique first, speed of execution second.

Hope this helps

Haggis

[Jupiter]

Building Intensity. I would dangle a carrot. But really, doesn't it have to do with the overall plan of the season. For example all competitions lead to the National Competitions. So, you would plan a series of events that lead to a successful outcome at the Summer Nationals.

If your season begins in August you might plan: Practice three times per week; with one extra day for free fencing, with 2 lessons per week minimum; The lesson plan is up to you.
A monthly competition that counts for something;
Your Divisionals; Sectionals and then you're at the Nationals.

The intensity should be consistent. I get the feeling you're looking for constant explosive emotionalism from fencers. They'll burn out too quick. If you're looking to build a lot of commotion for a camera, I think you're on the wrong track. Fencing's different and a good fencer keeps his head, basically all year around, twelve months of the year. The emotion is there, you don't have to whip it up!

p.s. i'm sorry about the "contant" omissions; i sound like elmer fudd, it's not deliberate; i fell twice when i was a kid hitting my cranium, once on the cement at full tilt; and the other time i was tripped and slid across the floor and slammed into the door - the wonder of it all is that i'm alive, so, deal with the misspells or tought boogies

[nahouw]

Originally posted by wflaschka

Possibly "hit" is a charged word.
.........cut
Anyways, my original question was about next-level fencers, how to build intensity when everything else is solid.

I don't think "hit" is ever good with the young ones. What I do with the young ones is fence them and limit myself to only basic point-in-line work with them -- that is what really sends the message to them that they have defects -- when I am standing there, basically not even moving, and it is 1 light for me. A very effective message. And, when they do get a touch, they know that they earned it, because I don't cut them any slack. I once even had a coach at a NAC come up to me during pools who called me a "terrorist" for doing point-in-line work.

As far as to next-level fencers , I work with them and see defects; I repeat hitting them on the same action until they can figure it out for themselves. If after 5 actions, they haven't figured it out, I stop and tell them what they are doing wrong and how to correct it -- I am a firm believer of "when the student is ready the teacher will appear". Most get it after the explanation, but if they don't after 3 tries, I move on to change my pattern to the next defect -- because if they didn't get it, it wasn't their time to learn. Intensity is built once the foundation of confidence in their actions is built.

[Chris]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
One that is able to alter his motivational techniques to suit the temperment of his students.

I totally agree with this, but would also like the statement to include their the ability to alter their training techniques: Not everyone is the same - we shouldn't expect them to be able to (most effectively) fence the same.

Fun, fun, fun!

[FoilyGeezer]

Competition is a good teacher, but it can also be a good learning tool. But there is a difference between fencing in competition to win, and fencing to get better. In pure competition, you're going to do whatever it is you do the best in order to win. In fencing to get better you should be concentrating on doing the things you do poorly so that you have a greater tactical depth when you compete to win.

One of the twists I've used in the limited coaching I've done is to structure the competion for one of the fencers in the bout.

An example might be to take a student who normally does the lunge remise remise remise thing and tell them. Okay, you're going to fence a seven touch bout. You can't initiate an attack. Any points you land by initiating an attack will not be counted. You can only parry riposte. And them watch them struggle to make their parry riposte a useful tactic. Make them use whatever is weak almost exclusively. In this way you can make them build their core skills.

An quick and accurate attack usually beats a clever one. Deception takes time.