Recommendations on a Quality STIFF Sabre Blade?

Hi! I have been having difficulty shopping for sabre blades, and I was
hoping I could get a good recommendation from you guys.

I need a quality sabre blade, #5, Y-Section - that is as STIFF as
humanly possible, and made of a quality alloy that is strong enough to
handle the resulting punishment.

I tend to fence hard, and a new SG blade from Blue Gauntlet, for
example, will last me an hour before I have a 90 degree bend in it. By hour
three, it's got an S-Curve, and because the metal initially gave way so
easily, it is now permanently stressed, and it takes next to nothing to bend
it again.

Price is not an issue, so if a Maraging Steel blade is ideal, so be it.
I don't do much in the way of flicking. The way I fence requires absolute
precision movement, which is why I need as stiff a blade as possible. It
does me no good to parry and cut, when as a result of the parry - the blade
is still bent (due to momentum) as I swing it down. Under those conditions,
a stiff blade would have remained mostly straight, and I would connect. But
with a soft blade, my cut is true - but the blade never connects because
it's still sprung to the right from the momentum of the parry. For me to
try and compensate with a blade like that makes it look like I'm flailing
about swatting flies with a wet noodle, rather than executing precise
maneuvers with something resembling a sword.

In addition, obviously, having a stiff blade means nothing if the metal
isn't strong enough to handle the punishment it will get. If my first 10
minutes sees the blade bent, it's useless to me. I almost never get far
enough to have a blade break before I throw it away. I throw them away
because the metal is stressed past being useful.

Given what I need, can anyone make any good recommendations? I would
love some knowledgeable feedback from all of you experts and veterans.
Thanks.

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:gu2dnfletfkM6CujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> In addition, obviously, having a stiff blade means nothing if
> the metal
> isn't strong enough to handle the punishment it will get. If my
> first 10 minutes sees the blade bent, it's useless to me.

I agree with your points about how a stiff blade reacts differently than
a more flexible blade (I also prefer a stiff blade). But what the heck
are you *doing* in your sabre bouts to bend your blades like you seem to
be? A cut shouldn't cause the blade to bend at all; the only time I
usually get a bend in mine is when I do a point in line and the opponent
lands on the point with excessive force. Not that bends don't happen,
but in my experience they're "once in a while" occurrences. I have no
idea what your fencing style is, but maybe you're doing something wrong
or non-optimally?

--Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns937271D4919C85439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166. 71.239...
> "Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:gu2dnfletfkM6CujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:
>
>
> I agree with your points about how a stiff blade reacts differently than
> a more flexible blade (I also prefer a stiff blade). But what the heck
> are you *doing* in your sabre bouts to bend your blades like you seem to
> be? A cut shouldn't cause the blade to bend at all; the only time I
> usually get a bend in mine is when I do a point in line and the opponent
> lands on the point with excessive force. Not that bends don't happen,
> but in my experience they're "once in a while" occurrences. I have no
> idea what your fencing style is, but maybe you're doing something wrong
> or non-optimally?
>
> --Holly


I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I bend 5 blades per day.
I do go through them rather quickly though (a halfway decent blade usually
lasts me about 20 hours of blade-time before I get the first "permanent"
bend). However, the last couple of blades I had were particularly weak, and
they really did last only about a half hour before getting a permanent
stress-bend.

As to your question about my style - it might clear things up if I
stated that I do not fence tournament; or more to the point, I do not fence
tournament rules. I take no issue whatsoever for those who do - however,
it's not my particular cup of tea. When I fence foil or sabre - I do so in
a manner which reflects actual combat, rather than a "touch" sport. Now,
that's not to say that I go about things unintellegently or
unprofessionally. On the contrary - I am thorough in my methodology, and
safety always comes first.

However, by "real world" rules, I mean that in true bladed combat -
there is no such thing as being forever limited by one dimensional movement,
as you are with a strip (although temporary scenarios of this nature do
occur), and right-of-way rules in true combat is laughable. Now, I am not
in any way, shape, or form - disparaging the sport of fencing. On the
contrary. All I am saying is that for me, personally - I prefer an approach
that is closer to actual combat rather than a tournament sport.

As a result, among other differences - when I fence, the atmosphere is
very diffent. Rounds are more.... potent? I'm not sure what the
appropriate word is. Aggressive is not accurate - that's not what it is.
But, for example, where a large portion of sport fencing takes place
indoors, in a controlled environment - when I fence, lighting, weather, and
terrain become issues to strategize and contend with.

In any case, as a result - in addition to a blade that moves where I
want it to go, and no farther - I also require a blade that can withstand a
good amount of strain without developing permanent stress-bends.

I hope this helps to answer your question, Holly - and I also hope that
my personal tastes do not offend any you nor any noble persons here.

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:huqdnaxg3JHWWCujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I bend 5 blades per
> day.
> I do go through them rather quickly though (a halfway decent blade
> usually lasts me about 20 hours of blade-time before I get the
> first "permanent" bend). However, the last couple of blades I had
> were particularly weak, and they really did last only about a half
> hour before getting a permanent stress-bend.

Were those particularly weak ones from BG? (I recall you mentioning
that you'd tried them.) I've used Triplette, Blade, and BG blades,
several varieties of each (never the most expensive ones). So far I
have had the best results with the Y-section "regular" BG blades - not
the "super light" gold-colored ones. I tried one of those and couldn't
hit the broad side of a barn door with it - way too whippy. But the
regular BG ones have seemed nicely stiff to my tastes.

>
> As to your question about my style - it might clear things up
> if I stated that I do not fence tournament; or more to the
> point, I do not fence tournament rules.

> I hope this helps to answer your question, Holly - and I also
> hope that
> my personal tastes do not offend any you nor any noble persons
> here.

Yes, it does help clear things up, and I am not offended I am a
pure sport fencer, myself, but there's room for all sorts of different
tastes!

If you have some flexibility in equipment (ie. don't have to abide by
tournament rules) have you considered using an epee blade in a sabre
bell? This might give you the stiffness that you want, although I'm
not sure how it would work for cutting.

--Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote


> A cut shouldn't cause the blade to bend at all; the only time I
> usually get a bend in mine is when I do a point in line and the opponent
> lands on the point with excessive force. Not that bends don't happen,
> but in my experience they're "once in a while" occurrences. I have no
> idea what your fencing style is, but maybe you're doing something wrong
> or non-optimally?
>
> --Holly

That is my experience, as well. If you're parrying with such force
that you bend blades, you are wasting energy...or else your partners
are hitting way too hard. Especially if your form is correct and you
are receiving their foibles on your forte or guard---in this case
there ought to be little or no whipover even from a more flexible
blade.

Fast, one wants; hard, one doesn't. They aren't at all the same thing.

That said, in answer to your question, I have not found any one make
of blade to be consistently stronger or more rigid than the others.
Individual blades vary quite a bit in this regard, though, so I choose
mine by hefting and flexing a few dozens examples at a bigger
tournament which the suppliers attend.

Never tried a maraging blade.

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:huqdnaxg3JHWWCujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> However, by "real world" rules, I mean that in true bladed combat
> -
> there is no such thing as being forever limited by one dimensional
> movement, as you are with a strip (although temporary scenarios of

Bad news. The "strip" was pretty much how maneuvering was done by the
time the dueling sabre came onto the scene. Sabre duels were as much
blood rituals as they were combat.


> In any case, as a result - in addition to a blade that moves where
> I
> want it to go, and no farther - I also require a blade that can
> withstand a good amount of strain without developing permanent
> stress-bends.

In that case, I suggest you look here:
http://www.popinj.com/curved_blade_project.htm

Yes, people are fencing with these.

Holly E. Ordway wrote:

>If you have some flexibility in equipment (ie. don't have to abide by
>tournament rules) have you considered using an epee blade in a sabre
>bell? This might give you the stiffness that you want, although I'm
>not sure how it would work for cutting.
>
>--Holly
>
I second what Holly asks. I've done some SCA and FIE and found that a
stiff epee blade (typically referred to as a 're-bar') usually satisfy
people who fence with your style. Also, have you thought about using a
schlager blade or are they too heavy?

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9372B9BB3A5425439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166. 71.239...
> "Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:huqdnaxg3JHWWCujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:
>
> Were those particularly weak ones from BG? (I recall you mentioning
> that you'd tried them.) I've used Triplette, Blade, and BG blades,
> several varieties of each (never the most expensive ones). So far I
> have had the best results with the Y-section "regular" BG blades - not
> the "super light" gold-colored ones. I tried one of those and couldn't
> hit the broad side of a barn door with it - way too whippy. But the
> regular BG ones have seemed nicely stiff to my tastes.
>


As a matter of fact, the last set I used *were* the SG gold-colored
ones.


>
> Yes, it does help clear things up, and I am not offended I am a
> pure sport fencer, myself, but there's room for all sorts of different
> tastes!
>
> If you have some flexibility in equipment (ie. don't have to abide by
> tournament rules) have you considered using an epee blade in a sabre
> bell? This might give you the stiffness that you want, although I'm
> not sure how it would work for cutting.
>
> --Holly
>


You know, that's been suggested to me before - the problem is that I can
tell that the blade is not symetrical, and I can feel the skew in the
aerodynamics as the blade is swung. So that, unfortunately is out.



Cumulous128

"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:3EB702CA.1090501@monmouth.com...
> Holly E. Ordway wrote:
>
> I second what Holly asks. I've done some SCA and FIE and found that a
> stiff epee blade (typically referred to as a 're-bar') usually satisfy
> people who fence with your style. Also, have you thought about using a
> schlager blade or are they too heavy?
>
> --
> Amy and Joseph Kormann
>
>


As I replied to Holly, an epee blade doesn't work for me due to it's
shape. However, I will admit that I have not tried a schlager blade. Are
they suitable for actual use? Or are some/all of them designed for show? I
recall seeing a nickel-plated one at some point, and I can't imagine that
being appropriate at all if the blade is going to be used, rather than hung
on a wall.



Cumulous128

"Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.net.spam.must.die.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9372BBB3E2686dogfaceinsightbbcom@206.141.1 93.32...
> "Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:huqdnaxg3JHWWCujXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:
>
> > However, by "real world" rules, I mean that in true bladed combat
> > -
> > there is no such thing as being forever limited by one dimensional
> > movement, as you are with a strip (although temporary scenarios of
>
> Bad news. The "strip" was pretty much how maneuvering was done by the
> time the dueling sabre came onto the scene. Sabre duels were as much
> blood rituals as they were combat.
>


Au contraire. I was not referring to sabre specifically - but
bladed combat in general. Duels and combat are not exactly the same thing.
Some were ritual in this manner, I will grant you that. But not all duels
were fought with the same rules and/or rituals. Not all duels were fought
in the same part of the world either. And not all sword fights were duels.


Your strip didn't exist for Samarai in Japan (and yes, I do work with
katanas as well), and they don't work for me either. <smile>


>
> In that case, I suggest you look here:
> http://www.popinj.com/curved_blade_project.htm
>
> Yes, people are fencing with these.
>


Thank you for your input and reference, Bryan.

"William Marshal" <trebuchet30303@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dc7987e.0305051451.3d94451d@posting.google.co m...
> "Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote
>
>
> That is my experience, as well. If you're parrying with such force
> that you bend blades, you are wasting energy...or else your partners
> are hitting way too hard. Especially if your form is correct and you
> are receiving their foibles on your forte or guard---in this case
> there ought to be little or no whipover even from a more flexible
> blade.
>
> Fast, one wants; hard, one doesn't. They aren't at all the same thing.


I agree that they are not the same thing. However...

You mention that one wants speed, but not power (I realize I'm
paraphrasing ). And perhaps, for tournament, that may be true. But
strength of arm, when used with skill and precision, is a weapon in and of
itself. Where a light-medium strength blow can be blocked by certain
techniques and expectations - if used and timed properly, a blow with
strength behind it will cut right through an opponent's defense. I am *not*
talking about brute force hack and slash. But aside from the time-honored
strategy of wearing your opponent down, an opponent can be lulled into
thinking that their defenses are more adequate than they really are - and
that lapse in judgement can be taken advantage of in a strategic manner
For example - a repeated pattern where a high cut comes in lightly as a
false maneuver and then cuts with strength below. If your opponent comes to
believe that they have deciphered this pattern in your swordplay, they may
eventually get sloppy in their block of your high cut. One hard swing,
properly timed and executed, will blow right through their sloppy parry.

In addition, with electric fencing, a person has the luxury of needing
only a touch. And for that, you can sacrifice strength without too much
difficulty. But the techniques are different between tournament and combat.
Where in tournament, speed and a light touch allows you to bend your blade
around your opponent's and *touch* their lame, giving you the point - in
combat, that will barely slow down the opponent who is in the process of
taking off your head while you give him a light laceration that won't be
felt until afterwards.

So I would say that speed and strength each have their place. And
whether one is desired more than the other (or both equally), is something
to be determined on a case-by-case basis.


>
> That said, in answer to your question, I have not found any one make
> of blade to be consistently stronger or more rigid than the others.
> Individual blades vary quite a bit in this regard, though, so I choose
> mine by hefting and flexing a few dozens examples at a bigger
> tournament which the suppliers attend.


Yes, I also go through the "bring me every blade you have" shopping
experience.


>
> Never tried a maraging blade.


That makes two of us. I'll end up trying one at some point. I just
hope I don't come to the conclusion that I just wasted a hundred dollars.




Cumulous128

In rec.sport.fencing on Mon, 5 May 2003 21:33:25 -0400
Cumulous128 <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> As I replied to Holly, an epee blade doesn't work for me due to it's
>shape. However, I will admit that I have not tried a schlager blade. Are
>they suitable for actual use? Or are some/all of them designed for show? I
>recall seeing a nickel-plated one at some point, and I can't imagine that
>being appropriate at all if the blade is going to be used, rather than hung
>on a wall.

I use one for thrusting combat, but I note they've been deemed
unsuitable for cutting by the bods running the SCA sidesword
experiment. I am not sure why, they are supposed to be practice
swords for a cutting system, but I suspect that there have been
quality control issues.

If you want something high quality that lasts, consider a Del Tin.
Say a practice rapier or bated rapier from http://www.darkwoodarmory.com
Bateds are a fraction stiffer than practice I believe.

Ain't cheap, but they are excellent weapons, and stand up to a lot of
abuse. I've seen people go into fast and hard cutting matches with
these and they've managed well. of course if you are hitting people
with them you must have decent control!

Zebee

In rec.sport.fencing on Mon, 5 May 2003 22:07:27 -0400
Cumulous128 <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>For example - a repeated pattern where a high cut comes in lightly as a
>false maneuver and then cuts with strength below. If your opponent comes to
>believe that they have deciphered this pattern in your swordplay, they may
>eventually get sloppy in their block of your high cut. One hard swing,
>properly timed and executed, will blow right through their sloppy parry.

That's their fault for being sloppy, not your ability.

And if they are using static blocks instead of moving deflections and
voids, even more so.

A certain commitment is definitely needed, but timing and accuracy
are more important, I believe, than strength or force. If I have the
timing and the accuracy, you can be Schwartznegger, you won't get me.
Because I won't be there, and your strength and force will have betrayed
you right into my hands.

Zebee

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:8BydnegubqdijSqjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> Your strip didn't exist for Samarai in Japan (and yes, I do work
> with
> katanas as well), and they don't work for me either. <smile>

You specified sabres. Since you specified sabres, I presumed you were
doing some form of sabre. I hope to have enough cash for a popinjay sabre
some time, although historical fencing around Indianapolis seems to be
fairly rare (the one group that might be interested in broadsword--post
Renaissance--only meets when I should be at Liturgy).

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:Vxydnb6HWZsoiiqjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> and combat. Where in tournament, speed and a light touch allows you to
> bend your blade around your opponent's and *touch* their lame, giving
> you the point - in combat, that will barely slow down the opponent who

That is an artifact of extremely whippy implements, not a direct result of
being in a tournament. I highly doubt that the Langschwerdt competitions
of the 15th century had any techniques that relied upon one to "bend your
blade".


> That makes two of us. I'll end up trying one at some point. I
> just
> hope I don't come to the conclusion that I just wasted a hundred
> dollars.

I would recommend against a maraging blade. There are now better choices
available.

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbbe79k.dvt.zebee@zipperii.zip.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Mon, 5 May 2003 21:33:25 -0400
> Cumulous128 <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I use one for thrusting combat, but I note they've been deemed
> unsuitable for cutting by the bods running the SCA sidesword
> experiment. I am not sure why, they are supposed to be practice
> swords for a cutting system, but I suspect that there have been
> quality control issues.
>
> If you want something high quality that lasts, consider a Del Tin.
> Say a practice rapier or bated rapier from http://www.darkwoodarmory.com
> Bateds are a fraction stiffer than practice I believe.
>
> Ain't cheap, but they are excellent weapons, and stand up to a lot of
> abuse. I've seen people go into fast and hard cutting matches with
> these and they've managed well. of course if you are hitting people
> with them you must have decent control!
>
> Zebee


I'll look into it. Thank you.



Cumulous128

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbbe7g4.dvt.zebee@zipperii.zip.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Mon, 5 May 2003 22:07:27 -0400
> Cumulous128 <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
>
> That's their fault for being sloppy, not your ability.


To a limited degree, that is correct. However, combat swordwork is in
truth, significantly more mental than physical. And we're talking about the
limits of human nature. One cannot maintain perfect technique 100% of the
time, especially as one wears down. A person in that position must choose
where to allocate their resources, and that is where they may be taken with
such a strategy.

And besides which, everybody is going to be sloppy to a certain degree
or another. How many people can you truly say make absolutely zero
mistakes, ever - especially when growing weary? Ultimately, you need to be
less sloppy than your opponent, as well as to be able to decipher their
particular vulnerabilities and exploit them. As I said earlier, swordwork
is more mental than physical.


>
> And if they are using static blocks instead of moving deflections and
> voids, even more so.
>
> A certain commitment is definitely needed, but timing and accuracy
> are more important, I believe, than strength or force. If I have the
> timing and the accuracy, you can be Schwartznegger, you won't get me.
> Because I won't be there, and your strength and force will have betrayed
> you right into my hands.
>
> Zebee


I never argued against timing and accuracy. I only stated that when
used *properly*, strength can be an additional benefit. Is it necessary?
Of course not. But then again, neither is terrain in your favor. That
doesn't mean that when you have it, it can't be used wisely and to your
benefit.



Cumulous128

"Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.net.spam.must.die.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9372DAF2FEEC0dogfaceinsightbbcom@206.141.1 93.32...
> "Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:Vxydnb6HWZsoiiqjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:
>
>
> That is an artifact of extremely whippy implements, not a direct result of
> being in a tournament. I highly doubt that the Langschwerdt competitions
> of the 15th century had any techniques that relied upon one to "bend your
> blade".


Excuse me. Tournament was the wrong term. What I meant was "sport
fencing".


>
>
> > That makes two of us. I'll end up trying one at some point. I
> > just
> > hope I don't come to the conclusion that I just wasted a hundred
> > dollars.
>
> I would recommend against a maraging blade. There are now better choices
> available.


What you recommend as a better choice?



Cumulous128

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:AhadnXOhmuCpNCqjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

> To a limited degree, that is correct. However, combat swordwork
> is in
> truth, significantly more mental than physical. And we're talking
> about the limits of human nature. One cannot maintain perfect
> technique 100% of the time, especially as one wears down. A person in
> that position must choose where to allocate their resources, and that
> is where they may be taken with such a strategy.

You are aware of the experience that Zebee has as you lecture her, are you
not?

"Cumulous128" <Cumulous128@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:PhadndjMJLQSNCqjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net:

>> > That makes two of us. I'll end up trying one at some point. I
>> > just
>> > hope I don't come to the conclusion that I just wasted a hundred
>> > dollars.
>>
>> I would recommend against a maraging blade. There are now better
>> choices available.
>
>
> What you recommend as a better choice?

I already posted a link to Popinjay.