converting french to pistol..

[Hanzo]

ok .. im wanting to put a viscounti on a blade made for french grip.
so in order to do that id have to cut some of the tang off . ive never taken apart a pistolgrip so i have no clue how long the tang is supposed to be. please help . also do i need anything other than just the pistolgrip to replace the french grip?
thanks

[Mergs]

You'll need a pommel nut that fits down inside the pistol grip.

To modify the blade, first put the guard and pistol grip on the blade. Next, take a piece of masking tape and wrap it around the tang where it comes out the back of the pistol grip. Take the grip and guard off without disturbing the tape. Now mark a spot about a quarter of an inch below the tape by either making a small groove with a file or mark it with a permanent marker (Sharpie). Next, run the pommel nut down the tang to a poing below the mark. Cut the tang off at the mark. You can do this either by hacksaw, dremel tool or bolt cutters. Now run the pommel nut up to the cut and file off any burrs. Completely remove the nut (which reforms the damaged threads) and assemble the weapon.

Good luck.

[FlamingDeth]

Most pistol grips I've seen just use a normal French blade with a shorter tang so no real worries there. As for how long the tang is supposed to be, I tend to throw on the bell and grip, look at where the tang needs to end so as to remain inside the grip, and just remember where it is when cutting the end off. It can help to overestimate a bit here, as if it's still too long, you can always cut more of the tang off, but you can't put any back on.

Also, as long as you have the lock washer/nut to secure the grip to the blade, there's nothing else needed.

Hope that helped!

[DHCJr]

The length is also determined by the type of pommell.

If you have an outside hex pommell, then place the handle on an with a magic marker mark where the tang comes out of the handle. Cut off the blade about 1/4" shorter.

If you do not use an outside hex pommell, it is a little more complicated. First find the base of the hole in the handle. This can be done by placing something down the handle to find the depth. Add AT LEAST 1/2" to the length you will need.

Remember you can always shorten more, but can not lengthen, so be on the conservative side.

Usually I place the end of the tang in the vise and then cut holding the blade. This is so nothing flys and hits someone. Also you should turn the blade a quarter turn 4 times to put the last cut on the inside. This will help the threads. Also taper off the end.

[Hanzo]

thanks for the help all!

[FenceForFun]

Wouldn't the tang need to be straighted out first, assuming it was bent down and sideways for a French grip?

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by FenceForFun

Wouldn't the tang need to be straighted out first, assuming it was bent down and sideways for a French grip?

Usually no....the bend is at the shoulder of the blade, not in the length of teh tang itself.

[rory]

Originally Posted by FenceForFun

Wouldn't the tang need to be straighted out first, assuming it was bent down and sideways for a French grip?

Depends.
If the set has been applied at the shoulder, then no - and you'll probably want some set on the blade with a pistol grip too anyway.

If the actual tang has been bent, perhaps so it can be used with a deliberately broken/curved French handle, as a lot of top epeeists are doing - then yes.
But it seems unlikely anyone who's doing this will be unaware of how do do basic armoury

[XanderHal]

Also to keep in mind:

The first time I did this I was very careful in measuring the tang and cut it too the perfect length, and realized the tang was not threaded down the entire tang. I went out an bought a tap and die set (which has become a very useful thing to have) and threaded the tang myself.

Very silly little thing, but it added time and money to the operation.

[Seanie Tyrone]

Originally Posted by FenceForFun

Wouldn't the tang need to be straighted out first, assuming it was bent down and sideways for a French grip?

They bend it for right or left handed with pistol grips too. I would think that the only difference would be the length of the tang.

[Nmfencer]

I just mark where the end of the pistol grip is, and take bolt cutters to it. That's what my coach said to do. If you're using an inside hex bolt, the cut has to be more precise than if you were using an outside hex.

Just remember the most important rule of cutting something:
You can always cut it too long, and cut it again, but you can't grow back what you've cut off.

Unless it's hair. You know what I mean.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Nmfencer

I just mark where the end of the pistol grip is, and take bolt cutters to it. That's what my coach said to do. If you're using an inside hex bolt, the cut has to be more precise than if you were using an outside hex.

Just remember the most important rule of cutting something:
You can always cut it too long, and cut it again, but you can't grow back what you've cut off.

Unless it's hair. You know what I mean.

If you;re going to use bolt cutters.....2 things to do...

1) Secure the end of the tang to something so it doesn;t fly everywhere (a msabre mask cords works well for this...one end on the end of the tang, the other end somewhere else)...you do NOT want to get hit....and remember that the shorter the piece being cut off, the faster it'll fly/

2) Before cutting, spin something down the threads like a hex pommel or a cutting die....that way you can chase the threads (reform them) when you take it off...the bolt cutter will flatten the remaining top threads and you won't be able to get a pommel on until you chase them.

[battleaxe]

You are really better off using something besides a bolt cutter. Angle grinder, Dremel tool with a kevlar cutoff wheel or a hacksaw with a good blade.

[countambrosius]

They are all right lolz nothing more to say...

[brtech]

Originally Posted by battleaxe

You are really better off using something besides a bolt cutter. Angle grinder, Dremel tool with a kevlar cutoff wheel or a hacksaw with a good blade.

I beg to differ. Nearly every armorer will use a bolt cutter if a really big one is available. It's the fastest method, it's easy to get the cut at the right place, and reasonably straight.

[twisterfencing]

Hanzo,

Here is the quick process:

click on the blue web posts for pics

1. First, you want to remove the french grip, connector and guard. Put/place the wire out of the way so that you don't break it. I am using a foil to illustrate.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0178.jpg

2. Place the grip you want on the bare blade. Meaning: no guard, socket or anything else. At the very bottom of the "V" of the grip, place a mark on the blade. This will be your first mark. More will follow.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0179.jpg

3. Now, from your orginal mark you made on the blade, go down the blade about 3/8" and make a second mark. In doing it this way, you will end up a perfect tang to inside hex measurement. Will leave you about a 1/4" of tang submursission from a tight pommel.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0181.jpg

4. Using a set of bolt cutters, cut the lower mark of the tang.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0184.jpg

5. Now, you have a really jagged end, will address further in next section:
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0186.jpg

6. Using a bench grinder or dremmel or file, you need to grind down the end of the blade to dress the ends so that you can prep the threads.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0187.jpg

7. Here is what a correct end should look like once your done:
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0188.jpg

8. Now, we need to use a die to correct the threads. We use a 6mm x 1 pitch die to do this. This will correct any and all threads so that the pommel will slide on correctly instead of cross threading or just messing them up totally.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0189.jpg

9. Now your ready to put it all back together. Do this carefully and your final process is the put in a inside hex pommel, tighten it down and your done. By the way, dont forget the 6mm lock washer - its going to really help you with a pistol grip. In the event, you want to kant your blade, now is the time to do it before you put it back together.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...g/DSCN0190.jpg


Hope this helps,


Gary Spruill

Originally Posted by Hanzo

ok .. im wanting to put a viscounti on a blade made for french grip.
so in order to do that id have to cut some of the tang off . ive never taken apart a pistolgrip so i have no clue how long the tang is supposed to be. please help . also do i need anything other than just the pistolgrip to replace the french grip?
thanks

[Purple Fencer]

Great post, Gary....but if I may?

You need to account for differing grip designs....the distance from the nose of the grip to the little (sometimes almost vestigial) shelf where the nut sits is NOT the same from grip to grip...even for an Uhlmann visconti, as yo go up in size (from a V0 to a V1, for example), ALL the measurements are scaled up....so if you use an inside hex on the V0 and it's cut juuuuuust long enough for the nut to grab onto, there may not be ANY tang sticking out on the V1 and you have to find a way to end-mill the recess deeper to make it fit.

With an outside hex, this is not an issue. What I do is to put everything on (guard, socket, if any, pad, and grip) and mark the tang right where it comes out of the back end of the grip (I use whiteout to mark it....easy to see, even with my old eyes!).

Then I take it apart and use my dremel to cut the tang a few threads down from the mark.

This leaves a tang long enough even for a German or Russian grip (which sometimes have DEEP recesses for the nut), so if you feel you need to swap grips around to find the right one, it present MUCH less of an issue then cutting for an inside hex nut.

As Dan says....there's no right or wrong way, there's just what works,

[twisterfencing]

Sam,
Agree with you.

I have just found that if I have the grip that is going to be used, its cut or standard, blade kanted or not, I use a standard of 3/8" from shortest point of grip hole as my cut point and roll.

Reminder: this post is for a fencer that has a french grip, wants to switch to visconti, has his visconti and is using his visconti on the actual weapon. Meaning: we are cutting the tang for the actual grip that is going to be used to fit a inside hex pommel.

Quote: theres just what works


Well, I been doing it this way for almost 10 years now and,,,,,it just works.

Try it, Mikey did and he likes it!

Gary Spruill

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Great post, Gary....but if I may?

You need to account for differing grip designs....the distance from the nose of the grip to the little (sometimes almost vestigial) shelf where the nut sits is NOT the same from grip to grip...even for an Uhlmann visconti, as yo go up in size (from a V0 to a V1, for example), ALL the measurements are scaled up....so if you use an inside hex on the V0 and it's cut juuuuuust long enough for the nut to grab onto, there may not be ANY tang sticking out on the V1 and you have to find a way to end-mill the recess deeper to make it fit.

With an outside hex, this is not an issue. What I do is to put everything on (guard, socket, if any, pad, and grip) and mark the tang right where it comes out of the back end of the grip (I use whiteout to mark it....easy to see, even with my old eyes!).

Then I take it apart and use my dremel to cut the tang a few threads down from the mark.

This leaves a tang long enough even for a German or Russian grip (which sometimes have DEEP recesses for the nut), so if you feel you need to swap grips around to find the right one, it present MUCH less of an issue then cutting for an inside hex nut.

As Dan says....there's no right or wrong way, there's just what works,

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by twisterfencing

Sam,

Reminder: this post is for a fencer that has a french grip, wants to switch to visconti, has his visconti and is using his visconti on the actual weapon. Meaning: we are cutting the tang for the actual grip that is going to be used to fit a inside hex pommel.

I realize that.....but since this is a public forum where some people go for information, I thought it best to pass on that not all grips are created equal...and what works well for a Visconti may not work at all for a Belgian or German.

[twisterfencing]

Sam,
Unless you use an outside hex nut, there is no magical measurament to a tang to fit all grips and all sizes? Example: Fencer hands you a new wired up BF blade. Wants you to put a med Viscounti on it using a inside hex nut. Six weeks later, he comes to you with an extra large Russian grip and wants you to put it on. Without drilling out the Russian grip, where you going to get the tangs from?

I build every weapon as if they are going to stay together using an inside hex nut. If there is a doubt in my mind (like a very young fencer) I will use an outside hex and take the tang length to the very end of the grip without cutting their hands. Others, not happening. I'm going to cut to fit, reassemble it and carry on.

Gary Spruill

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

I realize that.....but since this is a public forum where some people go for information, I thought it best to pass on that not all grips are created equal...and what works well for a Visconti may not work at all for a Belgian or German.