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schlager7 · 04-30-2003, 09:27 PM

I admit I sometimes miss things that everyone else hears about, but...

I was at a local tournament in Houston, Texas. I was due to compete in mixed foil and mixed epee. At the time I arrived, the (earlier) under-14 mixed foil and mixed epee events were nearing an end. The parent of a young man from our club found me and stated his son had received a yellow card for executing a basic cross forward (passe-avance) early in the foil competition.

This was news to me so I checked with the director afterwards (recently relocated to Texas from Poland, she was on the national team there some time back).

She confirmed to me that to cross the back foot forward of the lead foot in foil is now a cardable offense.

I can not fathom the reason for such a rule.

Please tell me epee still allows passe-avance?

Windsor · 04-30-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by schlager7
I admit I sometimes miss things that everyone else hears about, but...

I was at a local tournament in Houston, Texas. I was due to compete in mixed foil and mixed epee. At the time I arrived, the (earlier) under-14 mixed foil and mixed epee events were nearing an end. The parent of a young man from our club found me and stated his son had received a yellow card for executing a basic cross forward (passe-avance) early in the foil competition.

This was news to me so I checked with the director afterwards (recently relocated to Texas from Poland, she was on the national team there some time back).

She confirmed to me that to cross the back foot forward of the lead foot in foil is now a cardable offense.

I can not fathom the reason for such a rule.

Please tell me epee still allows passe-avance?

Thats news to me, I was pretty sure only Sabre had rules regarding crossing...

AndrewH · 04-30-2003, 09:47 PM

I do recall something about the fleche being eliminated in foil... but i wasn't sure if it was even true or when it was supposed to take effect.

d0gz|song · 04-30-2003, 10:08 PM

Wha?? I do cross-overs all the time in competitions...a cardable offense??

MikeHarm · 04-30-2003, 10:15 PM

Nonsense, people fleche all the time and we'd of definately seen stuff on the USFA web page if such a major change had come into effect. Too bad the kid didn't appeal to the bout commitee he'd of had one less yellow card.

Jupiter · 04-30-2003, 10:27 PM

They keep trying to mess up fencing. I heard the same thing, check the rule book and also USFA sent out a little cheat sheet.

Don't keep your feet on the ground.

damianip · 04-30-2003, 10:51 PM

IN NJ high school competitions, the fleche is not allowed.

Was this a USFA event?

Paolo

Tomas N · 05-01-2003, 09:07 AM

Paolo probably has it right. I too remember (long ago) that NJ high school fencing didn't allow crossing of the feet. It was considered a safety issue. Could a division also institute such a rule for under 14 events?

Tomas

jeff · 05-01-2003, 09:20 AM

It's a pity that cross over is lumped together with fleche. It's perfectly safe to do, and can easily be distinguished from an actual fleche. When I direct HS (also in NJ) I continually have to remind myself that it's not allowed. FWIW, fleche was also not permitted in NY high school competition.

latenight · 05-01-2003, 09:30 AM

First I've heard of it. I use it all the time.

mifencer · 05-01-2003, 10:01 AM

I just came from Overland Park and refereed more Y12 & Y14 bouts than I ever wanted. There is NO rule in FOIL that prevents a cross over step.

edew · 05-01-2003, 10:52 AM

I too was at Overland Park refereeing foil and epee (on Saturday, I did 1 pool of 7 epee with another referee, one pool of 6 women's foil alone, TWO pools of 7 Y12 MF ALONE, DE of the Y12 MF until the round of 8, 67 5-touch bouts, 9 best 2-out-of-3 DE bouts...boy was my body in pain).

Anyway, the only notice we got from the FOC was clarification on the passivity rule. There were no claims that feet crossing forward in foil is a cardable offense.

I believe the poor referee in that tournament is mistaken, confusing foil with sabre.

Purple Fencer · 05-01-2003, 03:13 PM

A forward cross-over is ONLY illegal in sabre. next time it happens, ask the director to show you the rule in the rule book. if asked, he's obligated to do so. if he refuses, call the bout committee.

neevel · 05-01-2003, 04:08 PM

I recall an Escrime International article (possibly one of Rene Roch's editorals) which mentioned the idea of supressing the fleche in foil as it has been done in sabre. Of course, somebody in the FIE mentioning something as an idea is a loooong way from it being a rule.

-Dave

earlie · 05-03-2003, 11:56 AM

Is a crossing over on feets no-no it is a llowed. Crossing over of a shoulder-shoulder: HA! No is a for bidden, is a for bidden, getts a yellowish card. NO?

Towelie · 05-03-2003, 02:05 PM

hmmm

that would suck if cross overs were forbidden, or fleches(however you sell them

)

yesterday in my fencing class, we did this 1-point robin thingy and there were those little kids. i kept fleche at them. they somehow forgott to parry each time.

a fleche is where you practicly run at the opponent, right?

Mischa · 05-04-2003, 06:55 AM

Yeh, that president was talking bull****.

Chris · 05-04-2003, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Towelie
hmmm

that would suck if cross overs were forbidden, or fleches(however you sell them )

yesterday in my fencing class, we did this 1-point robin thingy and there were those little kids. i kept fleche at them. they somehow forgott to parry each time.

a fleche is where you practicly run at the opponent, right?

A fleche is an attack where you 'dart' towards your opponent; thrusting with both legs, in an action wherein they will crossover . Contrary to what so many people seem to beleive, it does NOT require running, neither before, nor after; IF you have adequate control of you body, you can immediately recover en garde position (using a forward recovery, of course.)

edew · 05-04-2003, 11:58 AM

A fleche is also not a distance attack. A distance attack might be the pattinando or the ballestra. A fleche should hit before the rear foot touches the ground (at least that was the rule for sabre before the fleche was essentially banned: if the rear foot touches the ground before the hit, the hit was considered a remise).

The advantage of the fleche, primarily in foil, is that it allows one to make a change in direction simply and quickly. If you were to retreat fast and make a lunge, that can be difficult. If you were to retreat fast and make a fleche, it's less difficult.

Jupiter · 05-04-2003, 07:29 PM

The pattinado is back. I like the term better than advance-lunge; only because saying advance lunge doesn't indicate a specific action; it sounds like Advance and then at some point, Lunge. So the pattinado tends to describe one action. Fleche attacks are becoming rare, if you're heavy footed, it's too easy to see in advance, and it has to be a total surprise or it's easily parried. Doing a true fleche, maybe I've done 1/2 dozen in the past, both feet off the ground. The cross over used to be a complete surprise to me, the kids used it all the time in their opening move for epee. That edew for putting perspective on an otherwise obscure topic.