Cross Forward in Foil = Yellow Card?

[Sabresque]

I thought just my coach said pattinando! Score, now I know it's not just because my coach is Italian. For the longest time right when I started fencing with my coach, I would always wonder if it was italian or one of the other languages my coach speaks.

I'm sorry, you'll have to excuse my blabbing.

[rory]

I've always been taught (UK fencer) that the patinando involved a "tap" of the foot in mid-lunge. As in, lift front foot, push off back leg, tap front foot and re-lift, complete lunge.

Used to signal the end of the lunge, causing the opponent to stop, when in fact they're still in-distance.

And as for the fleche being on the way out? No chance - epeeists use it all the time, especially those at the higher levels.
I've been known to use it in foil too, but generally I need to set it up - eg advance, retreat, wait until opponent is off balance during change- of direction, fleche.
Works a treat if you can time it.

And no, I'm not a small fencer - 6'2" at last count.

[edew]

That's an appel.

[rory]

But then, I've *also* always been taught something different for the appel.

What I've understood is that:

1) An appel is a standalone tap of the front foot, as an action on it's own (like what you'd do with your front foot in a ballestra), not involving any movement of the rear foot, and purely used to startle your opponent.

2) A patinando is a tap/slap of the front foot in mid-lunge - i.e. you begin the lunge, but halfway through the lunge, and without decreasing your momentum or changing the length of your lunge, you bang your foot on the floor.

3) And a ballestra is a forward hop, with the front foot coming down hard enough to make a noise, giving you a small gain in distance at high speed, and with your feet coming slightly closer together at the end than at the beginning, to facilitate a more powerful following motion (eg lunge).

But then - what coaches teach varies widely (wildly? :-) ), so rather than one of us misinterpreting, we may simply have been taught differently.
Or I may have phrased my past post badly, in which case I offer my apologies.

[Jupiter]

it seems like such a waste to try to tap tap tap nevermore in midlunge; but it's worth the try.

i like the fleche also; it seems it's seen less and less though. see you around!

[CarlKnoch]

It's no wonder my coach changed all the terminology of the actions. Footwork drills wound like this...

advance, triple tap, soft lunge, check step, balistra, lunge.

We do those kinds of drills every practice and I thought originally that they were for no good reason other than leg strength. Then I did one of the combos in a bout and the touch was so smooth they didn't even parry. They were caught up in trying to keep distance, while I was just going through the motions smoothly.

I liked the quote by Chris Carter of the NFL that applies to fencing as well. I'll paraphrase...

"Most people think I catch the football with my hands, but I don't. I catch the ball with my feet, since it's my feet that get me to the place I need to be in order to let my hands do thier job easily."

[CarlKnoch]

Oh.. and the Fleche... I meant to say that I've been taught that the fleche is a move to be used sparingly if at all, and that it's one that needs to be done when close. Fleche's from distance are like hanging a sign on yourself saying "please parry riposte this really long attack".

I've been told that the fleche is meant to be a surprise that catches the opponent off guard with it's speed.

However, I would like to know the mechanics. As of right now when I fleche I Throw my back leg forward with knee bent and push off hard with my front leg to propel myself forward. The extra distance you clear could make some believe that it's a distance attack, but it's not. The extra distance you clear by basically using your front foot plant as the starting place for the push off instead of the rear foot, just allows you to hit when the retreat as a response.

Any other info I need?

[rory]

You're largely correct. The fleche is indeed a surprise attack.

It should be executed from no more than step-lunging distance (too far away? step in :-) ), and should be timed in such a way as to ensure that the hit lands before the back foot hits the floor.

Things to remember:
1) Keep your upper body upright - if your front shoulder drops, you'll miss.

2) But make sure to go along, *not* up and down.

3) One step. No running down the piste. Your back foot should cross over, then your front foot comes back en guarde in front of it, and you're balanced. Only one step.

4) You can go either way - fleching to the "wrong" side can be a great surprise attack. Don't bump your opponent though or you'll get carded.


To execute the fleche, stand en guarde. Extend your arm and allow yourself to fall forward. When you're about to fall flat on your face, bring your back foot through in a cross step.

At a more advanced level, try sitting down a little lower before execution, pushing your hips back so you lean your torso forward. Then, when executing the fleche, fall forward, push off the front leg and ram your hips through FAST.

Gotta keep your head up, though,.