French Grip in Epee

[Duelist]

Hello all,

I was reading this old thread: http://www.fencing101.com/vb/archive/topic/4928.html and I have a few questions.

I am an epeeist who currently uses a pistol and am thinking of switching to a French. No one I have spoken to seems to know anything about the subject, so I thought I would ask here. My questions are:

What is involved in switching?

Why is French more popular/effective in epee opposed to foil?

What are the French's strong points?

How do you counter the pistol's strong points?

I apologize for my complete newb knowledge on the subject, everyone I know fences with a pistol.

[edew]

Originally posted by Duelist
Hello all,

I was reading this old thread: http://www.fencing101.com/vb/archive/topic/4928.html and I have a few questions.

I am an epeeist who currently uses a pistol and am thinking of switching to a French. No one I have spoken to seems to know anything about the subject, so I thought I would ask here. My questions are:

What is involved in switching?

Why is French more popular/effective in epee opposed to foil?

What are the French's strong points?

How do you counter the pistol's strong points?

I apologize for my complete newb knowledge on the subject, everyone I know fences with a pistol.

Mechanically, new blades, as you can't put a french grip on blades cut for pistol grips. Buy french grips, but I think you would have thought of that.

People in epee don't need to do those big feints. There isn't as much parry-riposte-parry-riposte in epee: you attack, you remise. The advantages of a french grip for epee are more significant than any advantage in foil (which is none). At a good enough distance, no epee fencer will try whacking your blade hard. That can happen at any distance for foil.

French's strong points include the obvious additional distance you get from holding it at the end. I'm not sure what else would be advantages of the french grip in epee.

Get strong hands and work to avoid beats by the other fencer, to counter the strong points of a pistol grip. A strong beat will knock the weapon out of your hand. Of course, with good distance, the referee will call halt before any touch is scored.

There's just so much more blade movement in foil that holding and wielding a french grip can get mighty tiresome. While an epee bout will last longer than a typical foil bout, the bulk of the time is spent bouncing around, jockeying for position, and not actually making attacks or parries.

[Duelist]

Thanks for that usefull information edew. I had not realized I would need to buy a new blade. I will be sure to do some drills for countering beats.

[Jupiter]

I have a grip question. Last night I was fencing epee, with my pistol grip and I noticed it felt a little too big for my hand, is it okay to replace the grip or does that throw things off; and the other part to the question is that I have read that an epee pistol grip should not be painted, or insulated is that correct? [if so, i'll have to find another aluminium].

p.s.:

epee rules. I love epee; I don't have to do wild feints and crazy beats! yea! epee!

[DHCJr]

According to M4.3 "However, at epee, orthopaedic grips, weather metal or not, may not be covered with leather or any other material which could hide wires or switches." Unless the paint is VERY thick, I don't think you could hide wires or switches. I would think if it only paint, I wouldn't worry.

Most handles do not have enough differences in weight to upset the balance of your weapon.

[Jupiter]

Thanks for the reply! I'm going to change that booger right now.

I keep hearing about the guy about 50 years ago who did the switches in the epee thing. It must have been funny though.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Jupiter
I have a grip question. Last night I was fencing epee, with my pistol grip and I noticed it felt a little too big for my hand, is it okay to replace the grip or does that throw things off; and the other part to the question is that I have read that an epee pistol grip should not be painted, or insulated is that correct? [if so, i'll have to find another aluminium].

p.s.:

epee rules. I love epee; I don't have to do wild feints and crazy beats! yea! epee!

rules notwithstanding, why would you want your grip insulated? if your opponent has the misfortune of hitting the grip instead of your hand, he will not have a touch if its uninsulated, he WILL have a touch if its insulated. true, this will rarely if ever make a difference, but it certainly can't hurt to have it uninsulated, and it can hurt to have it insulated.

-m

[fencingguy]

Actually this thread is interesting because I'm thinking of switching myself. I've fenced with a pistol grip for a long time and I'm good with it, but I think that I may be able to get a little better with a French. I tried one recently because all my other weapons were broken. Turns out I really have some skill with it. So I'm wondering what the nicer french grips are and if anyone has an idea of which vendor to buy one from.

[DangerMouse]

Originally posted by fencingguy
Actually this thread is interesting because I'm thinking of switching myself. I've fenced with a pistol grip for a long time and I'm good with it, but I think that I may be able to get a little better with a French. I tried one recently because all my other weapons were broken. Turns out I really have some skill with it. So I'm wondering what the nicer french grips are and if anyone has an idea of which vendor to buy one from.

I've been using the PBT rubber over aluminum french grips for a couple years now. I really like the way the grip is curved to fit into your hand, although it can take a little time to get the tang bent just right to fit through the not so straight hole in the grip (if the grip is curved, the hole has to be too). I also have a variation on these from Bill Reith in Cleveland where he takes the aluminum part without the rubber and somehow puts surgical tubing over it for a slightly thicker and smoother feel. Both variations are great.

-DM

[ccm]

Originally posted by fencingguy
...So I'm wondering what the nicer french grips are and if anyone has an idea of which vendor to buy one from.

As far as I have seen there are three kinds of French grips available these days:
- leatherbound handle with plastic core
- plastic handle with plastic core
- plastic handle with aluminum core

Allstar offers all three types, while Uhlmann has only the first two kinds. I do not know about other vendors, but most seem to have them.

My preference is the leatherbound variety, although I never tried the plastic grips in epee or foil yet. My main weapon is sabre (also with leatherbound grips).

I also noticed that the reddish Allstar leather grips seem to offer a better grip due to their surface coating compared to the dark Uhlmann ones, but this may be a subjective experience.

[DHCJr]

There are several others available.

Leather over wood
Cord over wood
Rubber over metal

There are variations in the shape and sizes. I probably have missed some also.

[fencingguy]

I've used the plastic ones in the past and they're terrible. If you post up on them, they really have a tendency to bend and not give you enough control over the weapon. I'm interested in the aluminum ones, and I think it comes down to the Negrini and the PBT (I don't think anyone else makes them). Is there any difference? I'm under the impression the Negrini is pretty thoroughly curved, while the PBT is much straighter. Can this be adjusted? if so, how, if not, has anyone used both, is one better?

[D'Artagnan1673]

This is what I use.

I have the Uhlmann plastic over aluminum (I think, but I'd have to look). I then run a layer of tennis wrap on the grip. This gives the grip a very good feel. That add to that, I prefer a leather glove such as the one Santelli sells. This is perhaps subjective as well, but I think they have a better feel with French than my Synthetic Uhlmann.

I have heard that the Negrini is the king of French grips if you are going to post.

[Jupiter]

Epeemike: hello, wow, you got sandblasted in the other thread. don't worry, things have a way of unraveling to present the truth. It was -Big book the author reminded us about making sure your epee grip was non-insulated. Whatever, don't worry about it my question has been answered.

[mfp]

Originally posted by edew

French's strong points include the obvious additional distance you get from holding it at the end. I'm not sure what else would be advantages of the french grip in epee.

There are other possible advantages in epee addition to the obvious distance gained by posting or pommeling ...

-- With a french grip (and sufficient practice) you can take advantage of a wider range of angulation moves.

-- You can change your hand position on a french grip, even during a bout. The only rule on changing hand positions for non-ortho grips is that you can't move your hand down the grip in a throwing motion (and that prohibition only applies during an offensive action).

[Duelist]

Thanks for the info. What exactly is defined as an angulation move?

[fencingguy]

an angulation is usally done as a counter attack to the wrist (occaisionally offensive). The hand is held out to the side and the point angled in to go around the guard. This is also known as a cave (pronounced with the a sounding like the a in blah, accent over the e sounds like a in Dave). There are various degrees of angulation used, from the very minor, to the very extreme. It is also done from all sides.

[rory]

Just to clarify, it IS possible to buy a French grip that will fit a blade cut for an orthopaedic handle.

Leon Paul make one - it's quite long, made of carbon fibre (lighter, but more expensive), and is part of their "Featherweight" range. You'll need an extra long Allen key (hex wrench? sorry wrong country :-) to fit it, but you won't need new blades.

See http://www.leonpaul.com

[fencingguy]

interesting. I don't know how I feel about that though... The track record on Leon Paul ingenuity isn't that great. The last big idea they came up with were their V shaped blades and while I know a number of people who like them, the overwhelming consensus is that they are awful.

I wish I could see one of these handles in person though. I found it interesting that there is apparently no curvature at all to the grip.

[Duelist]

Hmmm this raises an interesting question. I have currently just been buying my equipment from my club, and there has got to be better stuff out there. Where do you guys think make the best epees / equipment.