Dinner and Fencing... I have a LOT to learn!

[Feanor]

Well,

For those who might have seen my previous post about the backyard play fencing session a few weeks ago with a friend that completely turned me on to fencing... Here is round (bout) two...

The wife and I had her and her boyfriend back for dinner last night, and after dessert we had at it again!

This time I had a mask, jacket and my own brand spanking new foil! *laughing* Still having not had my first formal lesson yet, she showed me very basic footwork, posture and basic parries. She thought it a good idea to give me just these morsels and let a qualified instructor carry on with the real training.

She showed me one parry, and the proper form for executing it... then we took our enguard position and she would lunge casually as I became more confident and comfortable with the motion (and in particular the proper foil grip! I kept wanting to put a death grip on the thing...)

It was funny because she kept droning on "economy of motion, remember, economy of motion..." (I had the tip flailing about quite a bit) at one point I yelled "Stop saying that!" as in the Inigo Montoya duel in "Princess Bride" and that got a good laugh from everyone

I thought I was getting pretty darned good at this one parry, and THEN she says "ok, now I'm going to vary my timing a bit and try to touch you, but it will always be in the same place"

... I came to the quick realization of TWO things

1) That she had been taking it amazingly easy on me before, and

2) My confidence was in the "over-confidence" category *laughing*

She varied her tempo and even the distances and number of "steps" at which she lunged and just as I was starting to get used to one variation, she would throw in something else that would completely fluster me (even though I was concentrating on just one thing and one area!)

When she saw I was recognizing similar attacks in groups then she made each variation completely different on each attack so that my level of confusion and effort and concentration was always constant at a high level...

Before I knew it I was sweating up a storm and I peeled of my mask and she took hers off and she hadn't even gotten to breathing hard! LoL! Though I was gratified at least that she DID have slight "Mask Hair"

"That was good!" she said "that was about 10 minutes, how are you feeling?"

I told her that it only felt like 2 minutes, and she laughed and said that was a good sign

We spent the rest of the time working on form and with her explaining the differences and reasons behind classical and Modern fencing...

I can just tell I'm going to have a great time with fencing, and also that I have a LONG LONG LONG way to go! *laughing*

I can't wait till classes start!

Have fun all!

Feanor

[The Red Feather]

>We spent the rest of the time working on form and with her
>explaining the differences and reasons behind classical and
>Modern fencing...

Which version did you get:

a) Classical [spit] fencing is for unathletic, puffy-shirted, community-theater-reject hippies, or

b) Modern [spit] fencing is the debasement of a noble, ancient martial art -- The Duel.

[Duelist]

Red Feather -

That is the best assesment ever of the bickering that goes on between the two.

[Feanor]

Red Feather,

Actually, her accounting of it was far more cordial

She fences in the Modern style because her emphasis is pure competition... Bear with me here because I previously knew NOTHING about the apparent schism that exists between the two approaches, and I'm trying to remember this off the top of my head...

She explained that the classical style was borne out of the forms and techniques of the original art of the duel, and at a much later time, the strict adherence to the classical style developed a strong affinity with the judging of non-lethal fencing duels...

before electronic judging, it was to your advantage to use almost exagerrated motions because you wanted to make certain the judges SAW you initiated the attack, or that you did indeed parry and defeat the attack launched at you etc... I think she used the example of the distinct straightening of the foil arm (classical style) in advance of the lunge to clearly relay your intent and right of way...

With electronic scoring, much of the ambiguity and fog was removed in the calling of valid touches... This caused a development in which a relaxing of certain forms and postures could be adopted in the name of pure performance and speed... Her example of this was the increase in "squaring up" against your opponent with the rear foot position no longer perpendicular to the line of motion, but now turned up to 45 degrees toward the opponent... And now it was to your advantage to disguise your intent from your opponent rather than telegraph it for the easy reading of the judges...

She showed me a number of examples of the differences that were most obvious, but she was never derrogatory toward the classical style, and thought that since my thrust (no pun intended) was more for personal physical development and not competition, that learning the classical forms was a good idea... and if I did go into competition it was still a good idea because the classical stressed form and control which are a basis for any good technique...

I think the example she used was Picasso, who had a brilliant "realist" technique and with charcoal and paper could render a scene that looked like a black and white photograph... The mastery of his basics was incredible, before he ventured off into techniques that the uninitiated greeted with "he has no talent! I could have done that!"

Her final capping of the discussion was basically that the application was slightly different but the heart of it was exactly the same, and that what makes one "better" than the other if you could judge that would be more influenced by what was "up here and what was in here" *pointing first at my forehead and then my chest*

It was such a movie moment!!! *laughing* I felt like Daniel-san in the Karate Kid! LOL!

Well... anyway, that was her take on it...

Feanor

[Jupiter]

Sounds like an interesting lesson; "Slap and Tickle 101" for the sophisticated fencer. Yuk, but all that sweat! I don't know; it's a little too heartbreaking for me; there should be a sequel to this:

1. Slap and tickle 101
2. fence of the 7 veils
3. Belly fence!
4. Roust and Fence!

c'mon, write another: I want Roust and Fence or Belly fence, I'll give you the first sentence then take off with it:

The two fencers bellied up to the en-garde line.

[S. Fisher]

"a) Classical [spit] fencing is for unathletic, puffy-shirted, community-theater-reject hippies, or

b) Modern [spit] fencing is the debasement of a noble, ancient martial art -- The Duel."

[D'Artagnan1673]

I like the Picasso analogy. I have taken an art appreciation class this semester so I can certainly relate to that one.

Perhaps I am an old stick in the mud, as PKT lovingly referred to me as, but I don't care much for modern art. I like the naturalistic approaches of the Renassaince and Barouqe artists. I even enjoy Impressionist and Neoclassical art. Modern art however turns me off. Why? Pure taste I suppose.

I did get a reproach by my instructor (not directed at me, but was certainly meant for my type). He said that I cannot truly appreciate the art of the past because I have not lived in their time and known what they know. I enjoy the art for the sake of nostalgia, when I have no reason to be nostalgic. However, I should appreciate modern art because I live in the time period when it is created and understand what is going on in the society in which it was created. Perhaps I should bring this to the water cooler.

Back to the Picasso analogy. I imagine that the fencers who make it big probably follow this idea, whether intentional or not. My club's best fencer ever, Conner Power, who held Notre Dame's record for sometime in most victories in foil, started as a classical fencer. Over time, he droped the French grip and adopted the modern style. That is just one example of a solid classical foundation based upon control which lead to a brilliant and skilled fencer.

[omaoligain]

Learning the "classical" forms is a BAD idea. The reason that they are not used in modern fencing is that in a bout between a "classical" fencer and a sport fencer (that is skilled) the sport fencer will invariably win with a straight in, straight out strategy. The classical forms are bad technique. Fencing is what it is because it evolved.
This will illicit a large amount of whining from the fluffy shirt crowd. But is is true.

If you like to play dress-up, then go to a renaisance festival, but leave your fencing equipment at home.

[omaoligain]

You Said:
"With electronic scoring, much of the ambiguity and fog was removed in the calling of valid touches... This caused a development in which a relaxing of certain forms and postures could be adopted in the name of pure performance and speed... Her example of this was the increase in "squaring up" against your opponent with the rear foot position no longer perpendicular to the line of motion, but now turned up to 45 degrees toward the opponent... And now it was to your advantage to disguise your intent from your opponent rather than telegraph it for the easy reading of the judges..."

Actually electronic scoring had nothing to do with the evolution of fencing from "Classical" to the sport that we no today.

(ok...before I get pounced on, It did cause the sport to change a lot, but fencing in the round and angulation attacks and most of those other things that one normally associates with "classical" were already history.)

Electric fencing has been only around for about 40 years.

[omaoligain]

hmmmmm....
upon reading your post a third time I have come to the realization that you are using the term "classical" in a way that I (and I think several others) mis-interpreted. I think that you are using it to refer to a very traditional style of sport fencing. Rather than the "sport" that is played by members of the Society for Creative Anachronism.

In which case I take back EVERYTHING that I said earlier.
DO learn traditional technique.
DO learn learn traditional footwork.
DO learn to hold your hand behind your head.
Do Learn to do a lunge properly.

You will later learn to incorparate many "modern" techniques into your fencing.

[D'Artagnan1673]

You are new to this board. To my knowledge, the term classical has always been used to describe the competitive, pre-electric days of fencing around here.

I was wondering why you were calling "us" fluffy shirts and telling us to go to a Renassaince fair. I have tried SCA fencing and have found it to be as silly as you were implying classical fencing to be.

Just for additional clarrification, electric fencing has been in epee since the 1930's, 1950's for foil and 1980's for sabre.

[Feanor]

Omaoligain,

Though they were mainly my friends words (and I wouldn't want to speak for her), I don't think she was saying that electronic scoring eliminated "classical" fencing, but only that it was a contributing factor to its ongoing change, or at least a supporting factor...

There are many in this forum who could speak on more knowledgeable terms than I as far as fencing and its history is concerned, but can you really discount Classical fencing as completely as you have in your posts? Relegating it to a useless oddity for nostalgic events?

Modern fencing has been around I would think, in a significantly recognizeable form for a while, but hasn't the Classical style and classical training been around far longer? and wasn't the classical style based on an area of combat study where lives were on the line rather than a score? Unless there was VERY strict code of conduct that was universally accepted, wouldn't it make sense that they built on the forms and then took some "freeform" liberty
with that (kick between opponents legs a 'la Three Musketeers? )

I would imagine that during the classical heyday, they were at LEAST as concerned about getting run thru as the average olympic fencer would be about losing a bout and this led to an understanding that whatever forms they used, they needed to make sense, be practical, and be a solid foundation for variation and refinement...

I was in Martial arts for a few years... We had forms called "Kata" they were a series of predefined and exagerrated techniques which were used as a foundation of knowledge and to build balance, confidence and form...

Couldn't Classical fencing be seen as serving the same purpose? If it is as you say, and Classical forms are improper and would be..

=======================

Son of a... *laughing* after typing most of the above I saw that you posted a third message regarding classical fencing I think I did present the information with some abmiguity (owing to my newness in fencing)...

Looks like alot of what I wrote above now supports both our views sorry for the confusion

[Feanor]

Jupiter,

*laughing*

Wait! you have to give me more time! that was a tough opening line (though the idea of a lithe female fencer with bared midriff is kind of titilating)

[135711]

Let me deduce this. I see no real problem with the blending of both classical and modern fencing. I used to know a whole bunch of people who did those festivals, they put a lot into their names and personalities and creating authentic clothing; also I knew a small group of people who went further back in time and created a Mongolian Horde, and they also did alot of re-creating. Many have tried to go back to fencing in salles, but it's difficult because there isn't a 'theme', but it can be done, it takes awhile to establish a discipline, but most historical fencers are not interested in becoming competitive and following established rules as set forth by an athletic organization. They have long ingrained problems with the high-school jock and the block-head mentality, and tend to be more creative, intellegent and highly romantic. They really shouldn't bow-out of the fencing salle - as they tend to bring a creative pulse to an otherwise "cut and dry" sport. I like both. What can I say, both groups offer participants and spectators alike a great deal of entertainment.

But classical fencing doesn't mean that a person spends all their time jousting. Shakespearean festivals have been around for a long time - it pays tribute to the Bard.

Anyways, what's in a Name?