Arm/Wrist Strength

[reawl]

One of my greatest frustrations in foil fencing is an opponent who has greater arm than I. Any attack I make is parried into next Sunday with the slightest movement from his wrist. I attribute this scenario mainly to arm mass and not so much muscle nor skill (for those parries are far more graceful and effecient).

What can I do either at practice or one the side to counteract this effect? I have considered attaching a weight to my wrist to level the playing field against opponents with larger arms. I'm all ears.

[Artisan]

Not neccesarily true. If they are making the parry at the correct distance, forte to foible it is not a strength matter at all -its leverage.
Arm mass is irrelevant, since what you feel is the flex of your entire blade against the relatively stiff base of their blade - hand- arm. I am routinely parried by smaller weaker fencers because I fail to control my distance.

My understanding is that in developing a feel for the blade, as soon as you feel a resistance in your opponents blade, that is the cue to disengage. At epee, then attack with opposition. At foil, counter parry- counter repost. Or, instead of getting parried into next Sunday, try a second intention attack, where along about Saturday night you disengage his correct parry (strong armed or otherwise) and hit. This, of course needs to be accompanied by the correct foot work. Try a step with the parry drawing attack (feint) and short lunge with the disengage.

Our coaches are constanly saying "fencing harder does not work" - and they are correct Fencing is a game of finesse, not force.

[veeco]

True. Most people looking to increase their wrist and arm strength should try to increase their finger strength instead to perform tighter disengages. It would be more beneficial IMO.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Veeco,
I agree with you. However, to every rule, there is an exception... this exception would be my girlfriend who has tiny wrists and because of that, during a collegiate competiton (all 5 touch bouts in dual meets) she is fine. However, she can rarely make it through more than a DE and a half before she feels like her hand is going to fall off... She needs to do the wrist exercises just so she can continue to hold the epee throughout the day.

It is hard to appreciate the problems she has in fencing because of her lack of wrist strength. I can not strip side coach her because I always look at a situation by what would work for me in a similar situation, and being a tall, left handed, and fairly strong, whatever ideas I come up with tend to not suite her not-quite-as-tall, right handed, waif build. I know that a majority of the actions shouldn't be predicated on strength, but rather leverage, but I've seen her be phiscally unable to do a particular action in a lesson situation (i.e. flick) because her body simply can't handle it, when she would try to stop the arm moving to finish the flick, the inertia of the weapon would contine to pull her arm, even when she stopped it. It was interesting to watch because her arm would stop for a brief instant, then get whipped down with the blade.

All that said, she is a very competent fencer, with much better form (ask epeemike) than almost anyone else on the team, which has been able to help her tremendously.
-w

[remise]

My son has a weakened right side entirely, but fences with a french-grip foil. He has learned very light parries, and if someone slams his blade (I don't know how he does it) but he has learned to disengage lightening-quick and get his opponent. I've seen other more experienced fencers than he ask him how he does that.

Personally, I think that he has just substituted one talent for another, and has capitolized on it. Since not many fencers go beyond their beginning years with a french grip, many of his opponents underestimate his speed and the fact that he moves wickedly fast. I heard him tell a beginner once that their feet should be the primary weapon in fencing, and the blade the secondary weapon.

[FoilyGeezer]

One of the things I keep mentally returning to when faced with a difficult opponent is the axiom that their blade can only be in one place at a time. Learning to find where it is not and going there beats arm strength every time.

On the other side, I have very good arm strength. I find that it is only useful as a tactic (i.e. beat attacks, flicks, fleches, etc.) and only if used sparingly, or in a broader sense against easier opponents as an intimidation tactic. In the case of someone who parries strong, just figure out a way to end up on the other side of his blade and he'll most often open up a huge target for you.

DJ. Concerning your girlfriend. We just had a conversation with regard to changing tactics. When you get old there are things you used to be able to do that you can't do anymore. When I was young, my stock in trade was a very fast, very long, very low lunge. I can still do the lunge, but I just can't get back up from it, and it flails the heck out of my knees. So I've developed other things (I picked up some really good pointers from the other fencers in the conversation some of which would lead one to believe that the Spanish School is alive and well). But the point is that you can build strength and speed to some degree, but it doesn't mean you can do everything all the time.

So might it be with her. There is a good amount she can do weight training wise (supinnated wrist curls, french curls and other forearm isolating resistance excercises), but it won't change her bone structure which is probably what is at the root of things. My wife is the same way, and though we have found some excercises that she likes to do on a fairly regular basis, I can't tell you about those here.

[JEC]

Would you guys be interested in practicing with this device:

Note: I have a patent pending on it.

[remise]

I would LOVE to!!! I need all the help I can get.

[Sarah]

I'd just use wrist weights, that's what I'm going to do. (when I get them)

[Wizardly]

I'm inclined to think that wrist strength isn't quite as important as grip strength. That is, a squeeze of the fingers makes parries overpowering. However, a death-grip on the grip will give you some serious hand cramps.

Stronger grip exercises. I'd only really recommend working on your wrists if your arms are like limp spaghetti and you're barely keeping your weapon in place. For as long as you can until your hand turns to jelly, disengages, over and over, as small as possible, as fast as possible. Change directions every couple of minutes. In my weight training, towards the end I do 2x10 of wrist curls and 2x10 of reverse wrist curls with a curl bar. Of course, by the end of the weight training, my grip has already gotten quite a workout, so the reverse curls are pretty tough...don't drop the weight on your toes!

Now, if your hand just doesn't work by the DE's, check to make sure you aren't clenching on the grip. Soft hands, relaxed shoulder, loose arm...relaxed is agile and accurate. Tight is strong and erratic.

[reawl]

For those of you who actually ADDRESSED THE QUESTION, thank you. For the rest of you who decided it would be better to spout fencing theory, a note: The fencer who knows several techniques is good, the fencer who knows more is better. And if you were judging my fencing ability and knowledge by the number of posts I have, then I've got a few things I'd like to show you on the strip

Taking in the constructive advise offered here, I've got a busted foil blade that I think I'll modify to hold some washers at the end (to allow for variable weight) and use it in my drills to work on wrist/hand/arm strength.

[d0gz|song]

What about those things that you squeeze w/ your hand to improve grip strength? Forgot what they're called tho...

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by reawl
For those of you who actually ADDRESSED THE QUESTION, thank you. For the rest of you who decided it would be better to spout fencing theory...

LOL. That's what you get for asking an interesting question. I'll chime in why not; don't be mad.

Theory answer: With your attack, you're activating the opponent's defensive system. Opponent is clearly still balanced and composed, because his parries are firm. Do do the disengage stuff, hesitation attacks, late-arriving attacks to spark his defensive actions before your reveal; each failed parry will move his hand more out of line, opening him up.

Strength answer: For every thing there is a season; sometimes you need to meet strength with strength. Your extended arm will never outpower his parry, because it's far away from you and his parry is close to him.

To develop a devastating, destroying beat/parry, you need a very strong arm but your feeling should still be in your hand. The muscles from shoulder to wrist come into play, but the struggle is to keep your hand relaxed & firm. Your goal is not strength, but change-in-strength.

- No weight lifting for bulk. Showy muscle just gets people dissected on strip.

- Pushups okay

- Squeezy toys okay

- Weight on wrist -- okay in moderation; put on and take off the weight several times in one session; if nothing else, the differential trains your shoulder to be relaxed and you won't ruin point control.

With these exercises, you're building the muscle you need.

- En garde next to a corner (that you don't care if you make bashes in); make small movements; parry 6 CRASH into the corner, or parry 4 CRASH into the corner. Don't "squeeze off" your parry or stop your hand, but instead make sure (in musical terms) the 'attack' (entry) is fast and the 'decay' (exit) is fast. The intensity curve for an opposition parry looks like a bell; for a beat parry looks like /\. You're not moving your hand more than 4 inches for parry 4, 2 inches for parry 6. To keep your hand loose, you can do a few slow circular parries before the destructive one. Always finished with a relaxed extension.

- Find a horizontal bar you don't care about. En garde, make a normal beat. Then, with the exact same motion, make the beat twice as hard. Don't wind up. Alternate between normal beat and 2x hard beat. Results from this one are quite rapid.

With these last two drills, you're teaching your hand to focus strength very specifically and quickly. This is not kinetic/gravity stuff, where you wind up and swing -- it's all muscle. You're not swinging a club, but you're reproducing the impact of the club with muscle. It's an acquired talent.

Note: Smashing the blade into nonmoving objects should be done in moderation. Too much will fubar your arm and give you elbow pains. The practice is just to inform your senses about focusing intensity.

Some fencers will never be physically strong (but still deadly). If you can manage it, strength plays can be a good tool in the arsenal, and are an awesome psychological assault. An anecdote from a fencer who fenced Italy's Cerioni: when Cerioni attacks your blade, it is so focused and powerful that your arm goes numb.

[reawl]

Now that's the kind of reply I hope for all the time! Thanks!

[Artisan]

Come now laddie, by age 22 you should know better - and a computer guy to boot....you can't really complain about the quality or nature of an answer you get to a question posed in a public forum. Since I replied with an answer that didn't include the answer you wanted to hear - a suggestion for squeezing tennis balls or doing pushups, I'll assume you've filed my comments in the "spout fencing theory " bin. You've made me regret the time it took to share my opinions with you - and I'm not a fast typer either. For what its worth I made no judgement about your abilities or knowledge based on your posting history, and was genuinely trying to be helpful, but when you go the way of....

Originally posted by reawl
.... then I've got a few things I'd like to show you on the strip

Well, I just had to peek at your profile to learn more about you - to see that you have earned the same modest rating at foil in four years that I've earned in 6 months.... well its nothing to be to proud about - for either of us...though I will gladly welcome an opportunity for you to "show" me a thing or two. Come to think of it, are you going to be at Summer Nationals? I'll be the one holding a sign saying "waiting for lesson from William Leland Read." I don't believe I have any special talents or abilities, other than being perhaps twice your age and knowing how to learn by listening to other good fencers and good coaches - even if I don't like what I hear. You might consider trying it. Eight years would be a long time to earn a "D" in even the softest of divisions.
And while I have your attention: I wouldn't want a CS major who's happy to pass his CS class with a "C " working on my project - you might consider another major -perhaps Hotel and Restaurant Management.

As for your Tag Line: You have two opponents, the one standing on the strip, and the one standing to the side of it.
I believe you have three opponents: you've forgotten to include yourself.

Welcome to the fencing forum. People are usually pretty nice here.

[rvergara]

touché Artisan

[MikeHarm]

I've been playing with french grips for a while. When I started I felt overpowered when I fenced people with pistol grips. I don't feel that way anymore.

Strength wise, I've always liked exercises with jars of water personally. But I think the root cause of this person's problem is not their strength its in their technique, tactics and concepts about what they're doing.

Learning to turn the opponents force against them, placing your blade in the part of the cone of attack that is weakest leverage wise, and learning stuff like receding parries will help them I think.


One thing that I found helped me a lot was the unbendable arm technique I was taught in Aikido, where they showed me how much easier it was to move around someone's arm when it was tensed up (like all of us starting out were with our addrenalin going) than when it was relaxed. When I learned to relax my arm when I was fencing beats, parries and attacks on my blade started having dramatically less effect and all the defensive techniques flowed a lot easier.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by MikeHarm

Learning to turn the opponents force against them, placing your blade in the part of the cone of attack that is weakest leverage wise ... much easier it was to move around someone's arm when it was tensed up ....

Indeed, yes! Certainly, one of the best things to do against a muscle-ly arm, or a tense powerful hand, is a bind. Engage in 6, bind, shiv down their blade to target. There is no tight hand in the world that will be able to fix that in time. I hadn't thought of that.

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by JEC
Would you guys be interested in practicing with this device:

Note: I have a patent pending on it.

My club uses something similar but it is an adhoc device. We simply hang the mask at the forte of the blade.

[Kodiak Kid]

A friend of mine returned from a trip to China (long before SARS!) and gave me a a set of "Chinese Health Balls". They are laquered heavy balls about 1.5" in diameter and they have musical chimes inside that make pleasant noises when they are moved about. They are available in different sizes. The intent is to hold the balls in one hand and by use of various finger movements, make the balls perform a variety of tricks. I've found them to be very helpful in making my fingers do things that they didn't know they could do, including manipulating the handle of a foil more adroitly.
I must share with you the exact wording on the instructions of these clever little items as there is no way to better explain the activity than to get it straight from the manufacturer:

"When taking excercise, put the balls on your palm, crook and stretch the five fingers in sequence to cause the balls to rotate and reverse, either clockwise or counter-clockwise. By this way, all the the {sic} joints of the fingers, the forearm muscles are contracted and relaxed ryhthmically. You may select the balls of smaller the beginning excercise; and when skilled, you can select balls larger in size. You can also practise {sic} with your two hands alternatively or three or four balls may be practised at the same time for performing a variety of figures.
If you want to live longer, please choose to buy the Healthy Balls."

Well, I think that says all that needs to be said on THAT topic!