Local Club

[Harold Buck]

In article <86ade73dg5.fsf@fibble.nospam.dev.null>,
Robert Pluim <rpluim@grandNOSPAMpied.com> wrote:

> [ I normally try not to get involved in these kinds of things, but
> this just made me go WTF? I'm hoping Harold is joking]
>

Yes, I am. It wasn't obvious?

> Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > > It is about the persistent egocentrism that Americans display. You are
> > > not the only country on Earth.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
> > countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
> > expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
> >
>
> So Canada and Mexico aren't close neigbours of the USA? (leaving
> aside the fact that Wales and Scotland are very close neighbours of
> England. Perhaps you were talking about the United Kingdom?)




--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Paolo Damiani]

Never did I say that the US policies of late were anything of which to be
proud. My point is that one should not go around dismissing or
characterizing entire cultures in one swoop. You took the fashionable
approach and indicted all Americans for a war that many of us did not and
still do not support. As I recall there were some 30,000 British troops over
there, courtesy of Mr. Blair. Should I assume that is a result of the
unified "group-think" of the entire UK population? All of you are behind
that, right?

You airing your opinions about Americans is based on what? Obviously a
propensity to jump to prejudicial conclusions. Don't condemn an entire
culture, that's lazy. Everyone should appraised on their own merits and
failings, not where they come from.

Secondly, American culture as such is an amalgam of other cultures and is
not "my culture" although I do indeed live here. As mixed up and flawed as
it is, it is still the best place to live.

Thirdly, there was no reasoned argument put forth, I simply made an
observation that the US learned its imperialist ways at the feet of the
master: Britain.

Fourth, are you saying that the summary of British policy in the articles
was untrue or are you simply in denial?

Fifth, a reasoned argument (yours) should not sink to ad hominem attacks.
Yours has and is therfore flawed.

Sixth, I'm an épéeist.

Paolo

"wreckferret" <ferret@cruelmail.com> wrote in message
newsgs0bvogk3bq400gloc333tbcv0qcq8a4p@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:03:33 -0400, "Paolo Damiani"
> <paolo.damiani@cinghiale.org> held forth:
>
> >As a start:
> >
> >For the Middle East in gerneral and Iraq in particular:
> >
> >http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/215.html
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2481371.stm
>
> It's interesting the way the first openly implicates the US too, isn't
> it? With regard to the second, I think Straw's navel-gazing apologies
> were nothing but spin, to which anyone remotely familiar with the
> Labour Party may attest.
>
> I, for one, was airing my own opinion about Americans, which is
> obviously quite valid as you got quite upset by it. Moreover, you were
> seeking, egocentrically, to gainsay, to answer perhaps for your entire
> mixed-up culture and to attribute some misplaced blame to mine for
> something that occurred way before my own lifetime. Your capacity for
> reasoned argument is seriously flawed and I bet you're a foilist to
> boot...
> --
> wreckferret ICQ#163264
> UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!

[Paolo Damiani]

That was referring to the current situation in the Middle East.

If you'd like to see other "contributions" to global kinship by our friends
on the continent, try the following fun combinations:

France in Vietnam (followed by a stellar follow-up by the US).
Italy in Somalia and Ethiopia.
The Dutch all over Africa.
The Portugese in Africa and Southeast Asia
Germany all over Europe, Africa and the Middle East
Even Belgium was in Africa

All this within the past century

It's an ugly heritage that goes back a long way. I'm well aware that the US
is the big player now, but the tides will change and eventually some other
country will step up to the plate.

Paolo

"Heather Maclaren" <maclaren@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:3EB07EBD.8020803@cs.ubc.ca...
> Paolo Damiani wrote:
> > As a start:
> >
> > For the Middle East in gerneral and Iraq in particular:
> >
> > http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/215.html
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2481371.stm
> >
> > The generalisation is not mine...
>
> Hum, interesting. Can't see much evidence of "European" imperialism in
> that lot, only two rather biased characters having a swipe at the
> British. I'm sure the rest of Europe (however many individual countries
> and ruling powers that is) won't thank you for that...
>
> --
> Heather Maclaren
>

[Remise]

Well, it had to happen. These sophomoric arguments infest all the other
newsgroups I read, so inevitably they had to come to fencing as well.

Can't you guys find another venue for this off-topic pillow fight?

B.C. Milligan

[Wolf]

> >Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
> >countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
> >expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
>
> You obviously are a prize geographer. Bravo.
>
> QED.

I don't know, the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel was probably pretty expensive.
-Bill

[What other US-Mexico / US-Canada bridges are there? I know there was talk
about running a bridge from Alaska to Russia, though. I'll bet that one
would out-cost the Chunnel.]

[Paolo Damiani]

Sorry,

I'm done.

Paolo

--
-)-------

"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks
like rotten mackerel by moonlight."


"Remise" <remise@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030430231718.26656.00000296@mb-m22.aol.com...
> Well, it had to happen. These sophomoric arguments infest all the other
> newsgroups I read, so inevitably they had to come to fencing as well.
>
> Can't you guys find another venue for this off-topic pillow fight?
>
> B.C. Milligan

[Carol]

Well let's see....

When Britain abandoned the Indian subcontinent, they divided it into Pakistan
and India circa 1948, leaving Kashmir as a seperate entity. Which both have
been fighting over since they left, and the fighting between them continues
today......

When Britain abandoned the Arabian penisula, they carved out Kuwait. It
basically left Iraq for all intents and purposes land locked, which is why
Saddam invaded Kuwait in the early '90's.....

Wasn't it also the British that drew up the plan for Israel circa 1948???

I'm not even a student of history and geo-political geopgraphy; just aware of
current events. I am sure there are some similar issues of when Britain left
their colonies in Africa and too. Not to even mention the whole Falklands
incident.

Are 3 specific instances enough for you for evidence that Paolo did not make a
sweeping generaliztion???

wreckferret wrote:

> >BTW, nearly every major political crisis in the last half century has sprung
> >from the seeds planted by British and European Imperialism, so don't get all
> >righteous on us now.
>
> Any evidence to back up your sweeping generalisation would be greatly
> appreciated.

[wreckferret]

On 01 May 2003 03:17:18 GMT, remise@aol.com (Remise) held forth:

>Well, it had to happen. These sophomoric arguments infest all the other
>newsgroups I read, so inevitably they had to come to fencing as well.
>
>Can't you guys find another venue for this off-topic pillow fight?

Apologies. I'd just like to mention that this is a newsgroup for all,
not just the US. As long as people will accept that and change their
posting attitudes to reflect this, I'll be a "happy camper".

--
wreckferret ICQ#163264
UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!

[wreckferret]

On Thu, 01 May 2003 02:02:16 GMT, Carol <ca.donohue@verizon.net> held
forth:

>Nope, Paolo is an epeeist.

Carol, I was being ironic...

--
wreckferret ICQ#163264
UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!

[Robert Pluim]

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes:

> In article <86ade73dg5.fsf@fibble.nospam.dev.null>,
> Robert Pluim <rpluim@grandNOSPAMpied.com> wrote:
>
> > [ I normally try not to get involved in these kinds of things, but
> > this just made me go WTF? I'm hoping Harold is joking]
> >
>
> Yes, I am. It wasn't obvious?
>

No. You'd be surprised at the things some people say on Usenet in
all seriousness.

--

[Chris Hagen]

In article <b8ohhg$rcp$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Paolo Damiani"
<paolo.damiani@cinghiale.org> writes:

>BTW, nearly every major political crisis in the last half century has sprung
>from the seeds planted by British and European Imperialism, so don't get all
>righteous on us now.
>
>Paolo

Just the LAST half-century?!?
WAYKM!

:-o

In article <3EB06B70.1822C045@unimelb.edu.au>, Simon Summerfield
<simonrs@unimelb.edu.au> writes:

>
>Pot...Kettle...Black
>
>The seeds may have been planted, but it was someone else who
>really made them grow...

Nice try, but you can't pass it off THAT easy!

Have a nice day!

In article <no_one_knows-592351.15053430042003@netnews.attbi.com>, Harold Buck
<no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes:

>
>Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
>countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
>expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
>
>--Harold Buck

Harold seems to be forgeting a couple hundred years of US 'imperialism' which
was cloaked in the sanctimonious pseudo-moralistic justification of 'manifest
destiny' wherein the US fostered a tidal wave of civil invasion, appropriating
and incorporated neighboring lands and territories often without consent of
either the current, or historic residents; with, or without combat; violence
usually followed or continued, in some form.

My answer, to Simon, is: Where in the HELL do you think we GOT those ----ing
SOB's in the first place? Hmm?

In addition, cultural imperialism notwithstanding, anyone who knows much about
US history (which apparently excludes wreckferret), knows that ever since the
War of Refederation, there has always been a strain of isolationism (with
various motivations) within US Society, and it has, at times been quite strong,
and affected national policy decisions; that being said, it only stands to
reason that this sort of thinking can be a little selllf-defeating, as A.
partly, some of these people don't want to get involved in things that don't
affect them, they may often feel that national politics don't affect them: i.e.
(for whatever reasons) american isolationist do not seem to consistently exert
themselves polically; at least not with the same consistency as those parties
with a broader outlook; and, either way; there have been times that it's been
a little hard to avoid involvement.

[Muffled 'voice' of B.C. Milligan: "Don't you kids make me come in there!!!"]


Good night!

[Chris Hagen]

In article <b8ohhg$rcp$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Paolo Damiani"
<paolo.damiani@cinghiale.org> writes:

>BTW, nearly every major political crisis in the last half century has sprung
>from the seeds planted by British and European Imperialism, so don't get all
>righteous on us now.
>
>Paolo

Just the LAST half-century?!?
WAYKM!

:-o

In article <3EB06B70.1822C045@unimelb.edu.au>, Simon Summerfield
<simonrs@unimelb.edu.au> writes:

>
>Pot...Kettle...Black
>
>The seeds may have been planted, but it was someone else who
>really made them grow...

Nice try, but you can't pass it off THAT easy!

Have a nice day!

In article <no_one_knows-592351.15053430042003@netnews.attbi.com>, Harold Buck
<no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes:

>
>Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
>countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
>expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
>
>--Harold Buck

Harold seems to be forgeting a couple hundred years of US 'imperialism' which
was cloaked in the sanctimonious pseudo-moralistic justification of 'manifest
destiny' wherein the US fostered a tidal wave of civil invasion, appropriating
and incorporated neighboring lands and territories often without consent of
either the current, or historic residents; with, or without combat; violence
usually followed or continued, in some form.

My answer, to Simon, is: Where in the HELL do you think we GOT those ----ing
SOB's in the first place? Hmm?

In addition, cultural imperialism notwithstanding, anyone who knows much about
US history (which apparently excludes wreckferret), knows that ever since the
War of Refederation, there has always been a strain of isolationism (with
various motivations) within US Society, and it has, at times been quite strong,
and affected national policy decisions; that being said, it only stands to
reason that this sort of thinking can be a little selllf-defeating, as A.
partly, some of these people don't want to get involved in things that don't
affect them, they may often feel that national politics don't affect them: i.e.
(for whatever reasons) american isolationist do not seem to consistently exert
themselves polically; at least not with the same consistency as those parties
with a broader outlook; and, either way; there have been times that it's been
a little hard to avoid involvement.

[Muffled 'voice' of B.C. Milligan: "Don't you kids make me come in there!!!"]


Good night!

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Harold Buck wrote:

>Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
>countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
>expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
>
>
We'll build our walls and fences and let them build the tunnels.

<tounge in cheek>My map shows the US as being in the center of the
world.</tounge in cheek> Well, really the Americas. Does that mean the
world revolves around Mexico too?

Sorry. I couldn't resist playing too.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Fencerbill]

In article <vb15qgfuaece14@corp.supernews.com>, "Wolf" <wrbusson@mtu.edu>
writes:

>[What other US-Mexico / US-Canada bridges are there? I know there was talk
>about running a bridge from Alaska to Russia, though. I'll bet that one
>would out-cost the Chunnel.]

Niagara Falls!

Bill Hall

[Harold Buck]

In article <vb15qgfuaece14@corp.supernews.com>,
"Wolf" <wrbusson@mtu.edu> wrote:

> > >Yeah, but that's because, unlike England, we don't have any other
> > >countires in close proximity to ours, and it would be prohibitively
> > >expensive to build a tunnel to our nearest neighbor like you guys did.
> >
> > You obviously are a prize geographer. Bravo.
> >
> > QED.
>
> I don't know, the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel was probably pretty expensive.
> -Bill
>
> [What other US-Mexico / US-Canada bridges are there? I know there was talk
> about running a bridge from Alaska to Russia, though. I'll bet that one
> would out-cost the Chunnel.]


You know, I was just saying the other day that I'd go to Russia if there
was a way to drive there in, oh, 15 days or so.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030501224104.18828.00000649@mb-m07.aol.com...
>
> Niagara Falls!

Slowly I turned ...

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Chris Aher]

Darn!!!! You beat me to it!!

ROTFLMAO

Regards,
Chris

"Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message
news:Psmsa.81$Qb2.46799959@news.netcarrier.net...
> "Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030501224104.18828.00000649@mb-m07.aol.com...
> >
> > Niagara Falls!
>
> Slowly I turned ...
>
> --
>
> Dirk Goldgar
>
> (to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)
>
>
>

[James Russell]

Your capacity for proper debate is flawed (who cares what weapon he does?)

Though I do agree with you generally (and am a foilist)

j

wreckferret wrote:

> On Thu, 01 May 2003 02:02:16 GMT, Carol <ca.donohue@verizon.net> held
> forth:
>
> >Nope, Paolo is an epeeist.
>
> Carol, I was being ironic...
>
> --
> wreckferret ICQ#163264
> UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!

[Trisha]

"Paolo Damiani" <paolo.damiani@cinghiale.org> a écrit dans le message de
news:b8q1tm$4jt$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> France in Vietnam (followed by a stellar follow-up by the US).
> Italy in Somalia and Ethiopia.
> The Dutch all over Africa.
> The Portugese in Africa and Southeast Asia
> Germany all over Europe, Africa and the Middle East
> Even Belgium was in Africa
>..

Dear Mr Damiani, you forgot :
France, Great Britain and Spain and Portugal in the previous centuries, all
over America =)))
Pls don't be so sad, we cannot remake human history.

As far as your contradictor was concerned, I think he was right, as the
person didn't mention any geographic location and the question could have
been for any english speaking country (Australia, New Zealand....).
I understand a pragmatic reaction would have been to ask first where the
person lived.

Let me pls apologize for by bad english and a so late remark.

[wreckferret]

On Fri, 23 May 2003 14:16:13 +0200, "Trisha" <patlengrand@wanadoo.fr>
held forth:

>Let me pls apologize for by bad english and a so late remark.

Not at all. That fact you posted in another language is testament to
the laziness of most anglophones... I'd doubt any of us native
English-speakers would even attempt to post something in a foreign
tongue on Usenet.

I did once, in German, to a mobile phone ng. The response I received
was indifferent... But that could have been ze Germans...

--
wreckferret ICQ#163264
UK-based Epéeist/Sabreur Make spammers pay... use CruelMail!