How Long? - Depends on You.

[corinna2u]

thebigriddle posted the following under Sarah's thread "How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?" :

"I believe it has some to do with nature athletic ability, raw talent, and brains since it is a thinking game. I have some students who have the physical, but are stupid as a rock. Other understand the concepts can't do it physically, it just depends and also how determined are you on being the best. I think it can be done very quickly, but also you have to count on the time of coach(es) you have, how long and how intense you train. Are you over training. A lot of factors. I think you should look up some books on athletic training, find a personal trainer and a good coach. Good luck."

Exactly!

This is the information these young fencers need to get more information on -

How do you know if you have the natural athletic ability? Can it be developed to a degree?

How do you know if you have raw talent? Can it be developed to a degree?

Brains? This CAN be developed...but you must have the kind of brain development that can assess and change quickly with the assessment. Alot of people can contribute to how to develop this...for some it will be an up hill battle, but well worth it for fencing and LIFE.

Determination...how do you know if you are determined enough to cut it?

How long to train? At what intensity? Efficiency of training is also important. If you train for hours and didn't learn a thing....hmmm...think about it. Over training? Haven't heard that before in fencing. I would like to know if anyone knows more on that.

Coach time. How much time do you think would work for a serious young competitor? Also, you can have all the coach time in the world, but if he has to spend the same exact time each week on correcting the same exact things, you are NOT meant to be a serious competitor. I have coached before (not fencing mind you) but this is my PET PEEVE. Kids get lessons every week, spend their parents hard earned money, and learn nothing. They make the same exact mistakes. If you want to be a serious competitor, for example, if your leg is wrong, work hours away from the coach to fix it. These are things you CAN do on your own. I am really hard on my kids in this area - they don't get another lesson until they have fixed at least ONE thing. If the coach tells in more than one lesson to lower their arm, you bet they will be working VERY hard to fix the problem. At a dollar a minute average, the coach should be teaching something besides 'foot forward' 'drop your elbow' 'weight evenly distributed', etc.

To answer Sarah's original thread "How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?" - it depends on you.

But, if experienced fencers and coaches would give their opinions on the above questions and statements then you will have a better understanding of how to self evaluate, and this Sarah is the key to advancement.

[veeco]

Originally posted by corinna2u

How do you know if you have the natural athletic ability? Can it be developed to a degree?

Very quickly, I'd say in the first 2 months if you have not had a lesson with your coach and did not feel any pain in the legs the next day, then you have it. If you don't it can be developed quite a lot with cross-training and adequate workouts.
If you are slim, tall, fast with long legs and arms, basically you have an advantage from your body type. Then you need to learn how to use that.

How do you know if you have raw talent? Can it be developed to a degree?

In the first year, you would know if you have the raw talent, and your coach would know. It cannot be developed. Raw talent is something you get or you don't. That doesn't mean that you cannot improve as a fencer, but the learning curve will be steep, as it is for most of us.

Determination...how do you know if you are determined enough to cut it?

If you are asking yourself this, then you don't have it. At the moment you ask yourself, this is hard, I am not sure if I have the determination to do it, then your determination is not strong enough, which doesn't mean once again that you cannot do it. It depends on the other factors, are they strong enough to compensate?

How long to train? At what intensity? Efficiency of training is also important. If you train for hours and didn't learn a thing....hmmm...think about it. Over training? Haven't heard that before in fencing. I would like to know if anyone knows more on that.

At least 3 times a week, for a total of fencing time per week of at least 8 hours. This includes only bouting and footwork. Additional time might be needed for crosstraining if you don't have the athletic ability.

[Aoife]

in the first 2 months if you have not had a lesson with your coach and did not feel any pain in the legs the next day, then you have it.

I'm having a brain dead day and I can't work that out. Do you mean if you feel no pain after a lesson with your coach (during the first two months) then you have natural athletic ability?

(and I'm taking this is muscle pain/joint pain, not achy bruise pain?)

Well then, I at least have that one nailed. My thighs ached after the first lesson, but since then I've felt no such pain.

[fencingguy]

[quote]Originally posted by veeco

"If you are asking yourself this, then you don't have it. At the moment you ask yourself, this is hard, I am not sure if I have the determination to do it, then your determination is not strong enough, which doesn't mean once again that you cannot do it. It depends on the other factors, are they strong enough to compensate?"


I disagree. Everyone questions their desire at some points. Just because you have moments of weakness doesn't mean you don't have what it takes. Sometimes those moments of self doubt are what drive people to get even better.

[Sarah]

I happen to agree with fencingguy; the moments of self doubt can drive peopel to get better. I know that I hate it when I think 'Are you sure you can do this?' But then i say, 'Well, duh! I'm me remember? I'm not your ordinary girl!'

[lfortier]

[quote][i]Originally


In the first year, you would know if you have the raw talent, and your coach would know.. Raw talent is something you get or you don't.

Well, if your coach tells you on a regular basis how impressed they are with your effort and improvement, and youre kinda their favorite, does that indicate you might have some raw talent? Plus, for a fencer of 4 months, I do well at tournies

[d0gz|song]

You know, I think different people just have different views on what it takes to succeed in fencing...

[corinna2u]

I too believe that there are different opinions, but I, also, think that alot of coaches look for certain things and experienced fencers know that it takes certain things for you to be a serious competitor. The young ones want to know those opinions. Some will see themselves in the answers and some will not, and A. make positive changes or B. realize that they are not the type to fight for the upper positions.

There are a few on this board that believe in spirit that they have what it takes, Sarah, for example. They would like to know what coaches look for in spotting a potential prodigy...also, experienced fencers have opinions from fencing the young ones.

Here is an example: My son, Douglas, took up tennis when we moved to a Carribbean island that did not have fencing. He showed potential. We moved back to the states. Douglas started taking some classes with other prodigies. After a few months, he wanted to know...did he have what it really took. We sat down with the coach. The coach said no, for various reasons; one of them being, Doug didn't start early enough. Douglas' answer was "Good, now I can devote myself to fencing."

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by lfortier
Well, if your coach tells you on a regular basis how impressed they are with your effort and improvement, and youre kinda their favorite, does that indicate you might have some raw talent? Plus, for a fencer of 4 months, I do well at tournies

no. Raw talent is different from effort. the doing well after 4 months thing MAY indicate raw talent. If you really can't tell, ask your coach.

-m

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by corinna2u
After a few months, he wanted to know...did he have what it really took. We sat down with the coach. The coach said no, for various reasons; one of them being, Doug didn't start early enough.

One unfortunate aspect of coaching is that they tend to deal with things in aggregate. This is a good predictor of what an average occurance witll be within a statistically significant population. In other words, If ON AVERAGE people begin to train at the age of 8 in sport XYZ then someone starting say at age 14 may be said to be starting "too late" which really means later than the average starting age of recent champions. This doesn't mean that the person starting before or after that age has any Particular advantages or disadvantages that would hamper their participation at a championship level. It's just one more factor to be evaluated. Along with Too Slow, Too Short, Too Heavy, Too Hyper, Too Tall, Too Skinny, Too Old...etc. Some coaches forget this, or use one factor to describe the result of many.

[Mo]

It is negligent to dismiss a fencer because they did not start as a young child, while it helps, it is not necessary.

There have been a lot of fencers who are very good who did not start fencing until college.

Fencers get out of fencing what they put into it. I am sure you all have people at your club with all kinds of natural talent who do not want to work. They rise quickly and crash almost as fast.

Fencers can get burned out and need to take a year or two off then have to basically start over.

There are people who work so hard they do very well.

There are kids whose parents are making them fence for some reason who just have a hard time.

Some kids have a lot of talent but cannot afford the cost of what it takes to get high up in the Cadet and Junior point lists. Traveling to meets and especially world cups can be costly.

The kids who fence at the PWF have some real advantages I really hope they appreciate. A lot of parents make some real sacrafices so their kids can go to the meets. It would be lovely to have it subsidized.

There are so many variables, being the best depends on an awful lot of circumstance.
However, if you decide you cannot do it you won't!

[MikeHarm]

5 years is about the right amount of time.

[Jupiter]

I think everyone is different. Many of the top fencers were never interested in fencing; in fact the story of Peter Westbrook is that his mother had to bribe him to go fencing; the Zimmerman girls I believe were also 'strongly' urged to fence by their father; and the eldest girl was very reluctant to fence; the top female epeeist in the world was taken out of her country and brought to france to learn to fence - by golly you're gonna fence!; who else; there are numerous examples of struggling artists and musicians who were basically forced to fence, draw, paint, or play an instrument by a parent or guardian. At first they all rebel, but finally, they realize, as they learn something great and worthwhile, that it's all worth it. Of course when we say "forced to fence" we hope that it means some strong encouragement using just the right words and tone.

[corinna2u]

Some kids have a lot of talent but cannot afford the cost of what it takes to get high up in the Cadet and Junior point lists. Traveling to meets and especially world cups can be costly.

Isn't that the truth! I quickly learned about the Fencing Financial Curve.

It IS tough. I have two fencers fencing at Sectionals and then Nationals this year. They are not expected to place high (in fact, we are hoping for not last ). One fenced for 4 months several years ago and then this year for 3 months. The other for 3 months. But the coaches that have seen them fence want them to go for the 'experience'. That is $300 of experience for Sectionals and $1,000 (at least) for Nationals. Ouch!

So, why are we going? Because of that raw talent, physical ability, etc. The coaches want them to get their first major tournament jitters out of the way so that next year (with a years worth of training behind them) they will be able to focus on competing.

Ony hind sight will tell if this was the beginning of that parental support for the next National champion.

[rory]

Originally posted by Jupiter
the top female epeeist in the world was taken out of her country and brought to france to learn to fence - by golly you're gonna fence!;

Who's this you're referring to? The only person I can think you mean would be Kiraly-Picot (nee Kiraly), ex-Hungarian LE World Champ, now fencing for France having married a Frenchman.
She fenced in Hungary for years before going to France, AFAIK.

[CarlKnoch]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Isn't that the truth! I quickly learned about the Fencing Financial Curve.

So, why are we going? Because of that raw talent, physical ability, etc. The coaches want them to get their first major tournament jitters out of the way so that next year (with a years worth of training behind them) they will be able to focus on competing.

Ony hind sight will tell if this was the beginning of that parental support for the next National champion.

Ah the financing of a champion! The financial planning for fencing is harsh!

I've found that the Fencing Financial Curve is different by location, but only slightly. In my area if you want to be the best you can be and do well nationally, start going to internation competitions and such, you'll spend $2000-4000/year for instruction and should budget at least $3000 a year for travel and tourneys. That number could be huge if you plan to travel abroad for World Cup Events, and lets not even talk about taking your coach! You'l need to pay his way as well. There are some here that can do that, but most of us can't.

So people like me will be with your fencers at Nationals in Div II and III, vying for that "Not Last Place" spot.

[corinna2u]

That brings a smile.

I agree with the 5 year time frame. I think after 5 years of very serious fencing you should know where you stand. As everyone points out, it is different for everyone, but I think 5 is about right. That is the number we are shooting for - dedication for 5 years and see what comes out of it.

I also smile at the picture of being forced to fence in this household - these guys live to fence. They even miss those 'boring' footwork drills.

But as with everyone, the dreaded expense is very much an issue. But they make sacrifices, I make sacrifices, all in the name of FENCING. Hurrah!

[Sarah]

My sister and I have started up a babysitting business, and so far (after 7 days) it's brought in 35 dollars! I'm so happy! It'll be saved for college and my mom does the expenses for fencing. I'm trying to find a small part-time job, (that isn't fried food) but I don't think that most places let 14-year-old girls work! Stupid 'child labor laws'! lol

[pammie003]

How early can you work in the States? In Canda, it is 14, but the hours per week are limited. Anyone?

[lfortier]

Well, I just started working for a gardening shop today, and they said for me (I'm 14) the limit was like 18-19 hours, paid min. wage. Try gardening centers if ya don't wanna deal w/ fried food(yuck!) Hope this helps!