Visor Mask

[It]

Saw something kinda strange the other day. A fencer who had one of those Visor masks. I mean it looks kinda awkward but I was wondering if you know of anyone or if anyone has one, and can you tell about it?

[bucket]

Yeah seen the mask myself, someone was wearing it at the last competition...

Leon Paul make them- bit on the expensive side.

don't see the reason why though- you can see clearly through the mesh.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by bucket
don't see the reason why though- you can see clearly through the mesh.

As I understand it, the clear masks are part of an ongoing attempt to make fencing more accessible to the non-fencing public. With clear masks, fencers won't be anonymous mesh-bubble heads, but actual faces and marketable personalities. Action fencing photos in magazines for example will be more fun for non-fencers.

Originally posted by bucket
Leon Paul make them- bit on the expensive side.

Also, I've heard that the clear lexan part gets scratched, and will eventually need replacement for even more $$. I expect the prices will drop if/when more fencers start using them.

Also and more interestingly, it may return the whole "art" of face-reading to fencing. You can watch the opponent's face to see when they're launching an attack, or thinking up something sneaky. Alternatively, you can make faces so opponents mis-read your intentions. A lot of stuff that we do with body language can be conveyed with a few clownish expressions. I can imagine what this will look like: Gives new meaning to "face off."

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I was interested to see a claim in the Leon Paul website that the visor mask is legal in sabre as well, even though the lexan/plexiglass material is non-conductive.

From LP's description of visor masks, it appears that the material is two layer, with the outer piece easily replaceable if it scratches, while the inner, thicker piece stays protected.

I will say that when I was helping at the armorers table at an NAC, the guys said the screws holding the faceplates to the mask came loose very easily, and the visor masks needed extra scrutiny to make sure they were safe for competition.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
I was interested to see a claim in the Leon Paul website that the visor mask is legal in sabre as well, even though the lexan/plexiglass material is non-conductive.

That's a decision that was made by the FIE to promote the use of those masks.

From LP's description of visor masks, it appears that the material is two layer, with the outer piece easily replaceable if it scratches, while the inner, thicker piece stays protected.

That's fine for security purposes, but it still means that you have to buy extra outer pieces, which you don't have to when using the mesh masks.

Also, I think that nice spray painted designs on masks are much cooler than those transparent masks, and will do a better job marketing the sport to youths.

[whtouche]

Originally posted by veeco

Also, I think that nice spray painted designs on masks are much cooler than those transparent masks, and will do a better job marketing the sport to youths.

I agree. And as a sabre fencer I find my only regret about my choice of weapon is that I can't paint anything interesting on my mask.

Does anyone know if it's possible to do so without it becoming non-conductive? On top of that barrier the paint would also probably chip quicker with a sabre mask.
Foil/epeeists get all the luck.

[veeco]

Conductive paints exist... But they are pricey...

[Sigurd]

Leon Paul also points out in their advert that the vision mask allows for faster reflex time by the fencer wearing it. Apparentley the mesh somehow reduces one's ability to react to visual imput. I don't know how signifigant the difference is, or if there is really any. And as for the sabre one, they say it has an advantage because you have less target area. Otherwise, I wonder how they are weight-wise...lighter or more heavy?

[Sarah]

I'm worried that they'll break. I'm sorry, but plastic is just NOT as strong as metal Geez. That would be scary, I mean, your oponent could poke your eye out. Gosh! I'm NOT buying one!!!!! *takes deep breaths* hee hoo, hee hoo...

[Event Horizon]

I wouldn't buy one. I don't like the way they look and don't think they are as safe. I've only seen pics of them so I haven't held one nor worn one. I doubt I'll ever will. I don't even want to give it a chance. Sorry this post isn't any help...just had to rant.

[Sigurd]

There are more reasons not to buy mask than there are to buy it:

1. It hasn't really been put to the test for long enough. Can we be assured of it's saftey in the long run? What about in some sort of freak accident that no one would think of?

2. The price is prohibative...and you constantly have to replace the outer layer of plastic, each time at a cost. If the inner layer gets scratched, then you have to replace it for even more money.

3. As for the sabre version, the lame could wear out (I personally perfer the Sabre X mask, since it has a mesh and changable bib) and replacing it would be a pain.

I also still think there are currently better options in the nice variety of traditional masks we have. Though...who knows? With the FIE backing this design, these masks could become better and more popular in the future

time will tell...

[a517dogg]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
I wouldn't buy one. I don't like the way they look and don't think they are as safe. I've only seen pics of them so I haven't held one nor worn one. I doubt I'll ever will. I don't even want to give it a chance. Sorry this post isn't any help...just had to rant.

so you haven't actually seen one in real life but you still KNOW that they aren't going to be safe...

one of my friends uses one, and she is fine with it. has never given her any trouble. says it was a little strange at first to get used to but now she likes it.

she's pretty so i'm guesing it's to give the director a better look at her face, so she gives her the benefit of the doubt.

[graphixaddict]

sarah..there are alot of plastics, and composites now that are actually stronger than most metals. People talking about the safety of this mask should realize that its built by engineers who can calculate stress points and the how much force it takes on a given point to actually be harmful to the mask. and from what leon paul says on the site it is actually safer than a mesh mask. and if you think about it..a mesh is only about 50% surface area the rest is the space in between..and its woven where as the composite in the sheild is 100% surface area and its not woven so one area doesnt have more stress than another. what i mean is its ability to protect you is even over hte whole thing, and im pretty sure that if you get hit hard enough you would see stress fractures befor you ever got through both layers. thats forces you to replace the surface with a new one and gives a better indication of it being unusable. Alot of people who take a hrd shot to a mesh mask just push it out and keep fencing a repeated blow to the same area that catches on any small divets that are left could potential break through at some point.
GRaphix

[DHCJr]

graphixaddict,

Actually some are a lot weaker than the mesh. At one international competition 3 visors shattered. Now I have seen 2 non-FIE regular masks get punched because of a flick, but the tip only went in a fraction of an inch and was caught in the mesh. Luckily for all no serious injury in all 5 incidences. With the visor mask, the visor stayed relatively together and the visor hit the face in front of the blade. The masks from major European manufactureds were designed with a hole in each corner for the bolt. All the stress rested over these 4 small points. These FIE masks have been desertified, one being Uhlmann.

If a mesh mask fails, it will not be over a large area. If a visor fails, it will be over a large area and the blade will not be caught.
The problem with replacing the mesh. Did you torque the nuts on the proper amount. Are the nuts loose. It would be a shame if a nut fell off with a blade coming at you.

The Executive Committee of the FIE is for the visor masks. The SEMI and medical commission is against the visor masks.

[Feanor]

Even though I am a woeful newbie in fencing I had some thoughts on the lexan/plexi masks...

I think that even though the wire mesh masks are a product designed and implemented in a bygone era, and new composites and plastics "may" provide not only better protection, but also markedly better visibility, I think the new visor masks have several disadvantages in serious bouts...

People say that seeing the opponents face might provide a visual cue of an imminent attack, maybe even the attack side or intensity... I would argue that it would simply be another opportunity to be "fooled" a poker face is not a difficult thing for a determined opponent to learn, plus, while you are trying to discern facial expression you lose sight of the point and almost as important... your opponents feet.

Its a time honored skill in sports like boxing or basketball to look one way and strike from another. Visors would introduce unecessary complexity, perhaps detracting from form and strategy...

By having a large percentage of the mask area covered in solid material, would this reduce ventilation and cooling within the mask?

Additionally, since the surface of the mask is perfectly clear (or optimally so) would the inevitable scratches and nicks and smudges be a distraction? With a wire mesh the reduction in visibility is consistent and familiar... To start with a perfect visor and then get a gouge in it might prove a distraction, like a nick in a car windshield possible even leading to strange light reflections...

Perhaps for top flight competitors its not such a great concern because their sponsors provide them with enough expensive visor replacements between each bout...

This may be the most subjective of the points but, I enjoy the traditional look of the mesh masks... plus I would think it punctuates a victory far more when there is a pause after the final touch, and your opponent strips off his mask and has a big smile on his/her face and says "Well done!"


Feanor

[WoodsideDr]

Anyone know what is the ventilation like? It's hot enough in wire mesh. Can only imagine what it is like in plexiglas.

[Sarah]

yeah, there are multiple reasons why you shouldn't buy a plastic mask. I know that I probably not going to.

[It]

Originally posted by WoodsideDr
Anyone know what is the ventilation like? It's hot enough in wire mesh. Can only imagine what it is like in plexiglas.

The one I saw, had a little fan in it. Wierd!

[Event Horizon]

so you haven't actually seen one in real life but you still KNOW that they aren't going to be safe...

yeah a517dogg, I still know. hehe

[rory]

Facts:
- Some are FIE homologated, some aren't.
- Leon Paul are, PBT are. Allstar aren't, Uhlmann aren't.
- Ventilation is not as good as a mesh mask.
- But you can buy a fan.
- Not mandatory in FIE competitions. Yet.
- Leon Paul mask isn't bolted. Have a look at the pics on http://www.leonpaul.com
- They're heavier than mesh masks.
- The people who tested them know how safe they are; we on the forum who
don't have the appropriate education are not qualified to comment on "it can't be as strong as a mesh mask".

If they become mandatory, I'll wear one. If they become as cheap as mesh masks, I'll wear one. Lighter? I'll wear one. As long as they're FIE homologated.