Keeping track of progress

[Wizardly]

I remember reading something, somewhere, probably the Am. Fencing mag, about a way to keep track of your progress (speaking of which, does anyone have a link to the magazine website, if it still exists?). Since I can't find the information , I'll pose this to all of you.

What methods would you suggest to keep track of fencing performance numerically?

Do you find a numerical performance system to be a helpful training aid/motivator in clubs?

[FoilyGeezer]

Personally, No. I don't think that cooking up a numerical quantification would necessarily be a good indicator of your progress.

Fencing is a synthisis of Speed, Tactics, and Execution. A fairly minor improvement in one area can result in what appears to be a dramatic improvement in overall performance. The way I look at it:

1) Generally speaking you're only as good as the opponents you fence.

2) Being able to defeat any one opponent who fences regularly at a certain level doesn't necessarily mean you're fencing at that level.

3) Improvement should be gaged by performance against as wide a selection of opponents as possible.

4) At lower levels, even win/loss is not always a good indicator of good performance. In fact, bad technique can win you bouts until you start fencing better opponents, at which point you'll start to get your head handed to you. Concentrate on execution of fundamentals both in bouts and in drills. In foil, it's all about managing distance and point control. When you're performing as well in bouts as you do in drills you're probably getting better.

Don't worry about the metrics of improvement. Look to the weak parts of your game and then work the heck out of them till they become the strong parts of your game.

[KBayDog]

Good post, FG.

More than almost any other sport, fencing follows the "Any Given Sunday" rule. I would not rely on the wins/losses, # of touches, etc. They are not good indicators - all a win means is that you had more touches than your opponent at that moment on that day.

I have adopted a great (albeit non-quantifiable) method of monitoring my progress from my running: A "fencing log."

After every time I wield my weapon, whether it be practice our bout, I record SOMETHING in my notebook. I am honest with myself; I note the good and bad points of my fencing. For example, "My advances were slow (I was raising my forward foot too high), but my point control was excellent - I had 10 wrist shots."

It only needs to be as detailed as you want it to be. Often, I will note such things as how long I fenced, my diet, level of rest, my mental state, conditions of the salle (lighting, floor conditions, temperature), etc. I always record observations about my opponents, as well as comments from my coach, opponents, and observations from video.

After bouts, I write down what my opponents did to me (and what I did to them) while it is still fresh. This is always good intel for future bouts.

Of course, you must review the log, chart your progress, and creat a plan of attack for improvement.

[NJP3]

I do the same thing KBay Dog, especialy after tournaments, I have so much going through my head, that writting it all down in a journal helps me undertand what I was doing right and wrong, and what I could of done to fix it. Plus, every now and then I can go back and read about how I was fencing then and see my improvements and areas that still need improvement. It really helps out allot

[corinna2u]

I agree a numerical system will be flawed and for newer fencers probably very disheartening.

The journal keeping is great...if you do it. I am one that never seems to be able to keep a journal after about the fifth page.

For newer fencers keeping a journal...your list to correct is going to get LONGER NOT SHORTER as you learn more about fencing. Do not let this dishearten you. As you learn more, you should critique more which makes the list longer not shorter.

If an item shows up on your list constantly, focus on that item until it is no longer there. In tennis, coaches stress to players that have been playing awhile: focus on your worst tennis stroke for a year. Of course, the next year, since you worked so hard on one stroke, another stroke would be the worst one. This can be applied to fencing: work on one item that has been a reoccuring problem. Work on it exclusively. This works especially well with experienced fencers that do not seem to progress any longer.

[Wizardly]

The reason I ask is that the idea of supplying an Elo rating based on the results of bouts has been raised. I've got a dozen and a half kids who seem to love the notion of fencing in a pool against each other and prove themselves the victor, though inconsistent attendance fizzles the idea from week to week. Most of them have been bitten by the "tournament bug," so competition is nothing new (and in fact something they enjoy).

It's actually a remarkable parallel to the smart kid competitions I've witnessed in high schools and colleges: the best and the brightest compete for grades to be the top dog. Where this isn't the sole motivation as by college they've generally outgrown identifying themselves by their grades, the effect of it is generally positive. Before long the majority of the class is indoctrinated into the mindset. Though someone with a solid B has no chance at head of the class, they do often compete for "top B" and so on.

Have you noticed that those that are competetive fencers are more focused on improvement. I've often told colleages that you will learn things in a tournament that you wont doing drills or play-bouting in a club. I call it "growing a set of fangs." Even when they play bout, they seem to want to win more...the fangs come out more. They are the ones that keep journals on both how they do and their opponents and ,given the choice, want to learn instead of play.

Near as I can tell, the Elo method is pretty good at mitigating the "any given day" effect as it keeps track of general trends and chances of winning based on previous performance. While this is perfect for a friendly top-dog competition among 14 people who all want the title, this isn't good for an extended group consisting of an entire division and then some.

Keeping a journal is a very good idea to track skill execution, but it is influenced by the psychology of the day. I've seen a lot of fencers become unable to separate their performance from the outcome. "I had a good day so I fenced well" or "I didn't finish high so I fenced poorly" can influence what get's written down. What I'd like is that one more tool, the one that dampens the extremity of that mentality, so that you can say "I had a good day, so I must have fenced well, but it looks like it was a fluke so I'd better work on..." or "I didn't finish high, so I must have fenced poorly, but then again it looks like I really couldn't have won being the only U here with six A's."

I've seen it, but I just can't find it, and I was hoping you all could tell me where to look.

[FoilyGeezer]

We use an erasable board for every strip. One thing you might want to try is running two or more strips in practice. One or two strips on a first come - first served basis and the third in a King-Of-The-Hill format with the winner staying on the strip as long as they are winning and taking on the next in line on the signup board. That way everyone gets to fence as much as their ability allows in KOTH, and as much as they want to on the other strips.

Works well because if you get a sound drubbing on the KOTH strip you can take it to one of the other strips and try out stuff right away instead of taking it home with you.

If you want to create a positive environment that has a competition undertone this is one good way to do it.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Wizardly

Keeping a journal is a very good idea to track skill execution, but it is influenced by the psychology of the day. I've seen a lot of fencers become unable to separate their performance from the outcome. "I had a good day so I fenced well" or "I didn't finish high so I fenced poorly" can influence what get's written down. What I'd like is that one more tool, the one that dampens the extremity of that mentality, so that you can say "I had a good day, so I must have fenced well, but it looks like it was a fluke so I'd better work on..." or "I didn't finish high, so I must have fenced poorly, but then again it looks like I really couldn't have won being the only U here with six A's."

Ahhh... the students need to learn to seperate results from performance. You have to educate them that fencing is an entirely different sport -- your result is always dependent upon the day that your competitor is having -- it takes two to tango..... I have been around the block more than a few times so, maybe some of my experience can help you educate them.

First thing, if they are keeping a journal, you have to make them answer 2 specific questions in their journal -- whether they win or lose -- and they must be answered: first, what they were doing that worked and WHY it worked, and second, what were they doing that was wrong -- and WHY it was wrong. The ability to self-analyze is the key to improvement. Self-illumination is the only way to progress.

Also, some other revelations on my journey that you can impart to your students:

1) you MUST dissociate your feeling of your performance from your outcome -- sometimes, you can be having the day of your life, but your opponent wins because THEY were also having the best day of their life, and their day was better than yours!

2) I was in a World Cup in San Juan. As Maya, Lisa and I were looking at the seeding after the pools, Lisa said that it sucked that she was seeded so low because she won all her bouts 5-4. Maya was ranked the highest person out of the pools, but gave a look to me, since she saw my results. I spoke, and told Lisa that she should be happy -- because I lost all my bouts 5-4, and what really sucked was that -- because I didn't have a chance to be in the DEs.

Hopefully, after this last story, your kids will see the importance of every touch in the pools.

[Jupiter]

I feel fortunate that recently I found a fencing 'summer camp' we had about 50 fencers there and it was great! We basically just ran around and fenced each other with three strips for lessons; one strip for the round robbiners; and a few other strips for people working out their stuff. I did notice that with the increased pool size, my point control improved. I also found a neat guy there who was willing to drill me on the toe. I haven't kept a log in a long time, but maybe I'll get back to it again.

My bouts in the last competition; I did much better, the bouts I lost were 5-4; with bouts won varying from 5-1 to 5-4 again.

See you guys around and thanks again FG! [it's my keyboard, it's horrible]