Tournament fees

[Dee EffEll]

Its it just me, or is a $35 event fee plus $20 per event an excessive amount to charge for a sectional championship? $55 to fence one event? That's the rate for the NW section this year. Don't remember what it was last year.

[kini mini]

The events here in Aus tend to be $35 of our dollars I think, looking at the AFF website. I suppose it depends on what you get for your money.

[wflaschka]

A friend of mine recently complained about a recent sectionals in Texarkana. Registration at the door amounted to US$100. Pre-registration would have been 1/2 price, but it wasn't advertised.

This price is much too high. Possibly as a result of the price, the event was underattended.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Dee EffEll
Its it just me, or is a $35 event fee plus $20 per event an excessive amount to charge for a sectional championship? $55 to fence one event? That's the rate for the NW section this year. Don't remember what it was last year.

Dee: It seems to me that the sectionals last year in Boise were $25 for registration fee and $15 per event...so it is an increase.

OTOH, the event is being held in Portland, OR, so it's a shorter/cheaper trip than a pilgramage to Idaho. In any event, I agree...it seems excessive.

For those of you in other sections of the USFA, what were your registration fees/per event fees?

[lfortier]

You guys have it sooo easy- For me, I usually have to pay 40 for registration plus the event, and when you THINK its expensive, just add on the coaching club fees- about at least $45 for local/ regionals and $110 for Nationals. (if its local, otherwise its $210!)

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by wflaschka
A friend of mine recently complained about a recent sectionals in Texarkana. Registration at the door amounted to US$100. Pre-registration would have been 1/2 price, but it wasn't advertised.

This price is much too high. Possibly as a result of the price, the event was underattended.

what do you mean it wasn't advertised??? at the end of sectional qualifiers, they hand you a form to pre-reg for sectionals! do they not do this in your section? anybody who qualifies to sectionals doesn't have an excuse for not being aware of when and where it is.

-m

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Dee EffEll
Its it just me, or is a $35 event fee plus $20 per event an excessive amount to charge for a sectional championship? $55 to fence one event? That's the rate for the NW section this year. Don't remember what it was last year.

It depends on how big your Section is; how many fencers will attend dictates how many referees they will need and how big a facility they need to rent and all the costs involved in running a competition.

For example, our Division is quite large -- quite often, the Sectional qualifier is smaller than our Divisional qualifiers. We have pre-resgistration (so that we will know how many referees we need to have, and how many strips we need to set up) but we also accept entries at the door at a double-the-fee penalty. The reason that we have the penalty is to encourage pre-registration so that we can know how many referees that we will need -- we had 1 year in which 20 men sabre fencers showed up at the door -- that is 3 extra referees that we needed, but didn't have -- sabre referees are hard to come by, and you have to schedule their time well in advance -- I know of1 sabre referee whose calendar is so tight that you have to book him at the beginning of the season in order to get him. Lack of referees slows down the running of a competition by at least 1 hour.

Some examples of the range of costs that the Division has incurred at various venues will give you an idea of what is involved in running a competition: a venue large enough to hold at least10 strips will set you back anywhere from $3000-5000; an extra insurance rider on the venue for the event $500 imposed by the venue; janitorial support imposed by the venue $750-1200; security personnel on-site imposed by the venue $750-1500; referees pay $2000+ (we usually have about 200 competitors and need 20+ referees); bout committee/computer support/floor tableau running/setup and breakdown staff $1000, and mind you, some of these people volunteer their time and refuse payment; armourer $200; trainer $200; equipment rental $300; food costs for the entire day for referees and bout committee $300. I'm probably even forgetting to mention some of the other costs involved.

Say we expect 200 entrants (approximately what we usually have). In the worst case scenario, the aggregate cost of holding the event is $12,200. Divided by the 200 entrants, this works out to a cost of $61 per fencer. In order to keep costs for the fencers low, some Divisions/Sections can subsidize the entry fees, depending upon how much funds they have available -- in our Division, we subsidize the fees for qualifiers via the fees gained from other competitions throughout the season, however, in the case of the Section, which only holds the Under-19 Sectionals and the Senior Sectionals, they can't subsidize -- they don't have any money to do so, so they have to set their fees in order to cover the actual costs inccurred in holding the competition.

Also, I calculated these costs for holding all 6 weapon events on 1 day as we do in our Divisional qualifiers -- if, like most Sectional qualifiers, the events are held across 2 days, some of these costs will increase.

It is a $70 entry fee for 1 event at a NAC or Summer Nationals; the Sectional qualifier is one step necessary to qualify for Summer Nationals -- and, at Summer Nationals, they have approximately 5 times as many entrants (based on our Sections average) in order to distribute the costs over. If you think that a Sectional qualifier fee of $55 is too expensive, what do you think of the $70 fee for Summer Nationals? Is that also too expensive? If you use the model of similar costs for simlar events attributed to each, a Sectional at 10 strips for $55 would be equivalent to the Summer Nationals with 24 strips should be $23.

The only difference in the cost allocation per fencer at a National level as opposed to the Sectional level are the following: increased cost for airfare and hotel lodging for referees and bout committee; increased cost for larger venue; decreased cost for referees, as more national referees are rated in multiple weapons, so you have greater availability of time usage (plus, Nationals pays their referees less than half what we pay ours). The throughput of bouts comparison between a Sectional event and Summer Nationals is 1 or 2 days for Sectionals, and 9 days for Summer Nationals. Based on all the above, the actual costs incurred for either a Sectional or Summer National event are equivalent -- why do you think that $55 for a Sectional is exhorbinant, while $70 for Summer Nationals is acceptable?

[Dee EffEll]

Originally posted by nahouw

why do you think that $55 for a Sectional is exhorbinant, while $70 for Summer Nationals is acceptable?

Your points are well taken. I agree that costs must be shared by the participants.

Your question can be fairly answerted by comparing costs. At summer Nationals, practically everything is imported. Strips, tournament committee, directors all come from other locations. The venue must be rented. This is expensive, and the quality of the event makes it worth the extra entry fee.

In many cases, though, the sectional championships are in an existing club or fencing facility, and the only real cost is directors. But how many times have we heard "direct out of pools" or "we'll get going as soon as some directors (or strips) are available?" I wonder what I am getting for my entry fee, and if I am being charged costs or if I am being charged a higher fee because I can be charged that. After all, if I don't like that cost, I can...do what?

I am willing to pay for the cost of participating in my sport. I am just curious if other sections have the same kinds of costs we are apparently being charged for.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Yesterday, I competed in the ME of the Swedish Championships. The fee was 100 Sw. Kr for each weapon you compete in, and 250 Sw. Kr for a competitive membership in the Sw. FF. The present exchange rate is 1 Sw. Kr = 12.1 US Cents.

The following is only marginally about money, it is more a description of the competition. My apologies if you think this is off-topic.

Strips and fencing boxes were borrowed from all over the place, or so I heard. Lots of members from the organizing club were unpaid volunteers, they got some snacks for their efforts. Several senior people in the federation also did work, among that reffing when the DE´s advanced. I don´t think they were paid. All reffing in epee poules was done by the fencers themselves, and those who did not make it to 1st DE reffed it instead. The place, big enough to easily hold 10 strips, was rented from the county or possibly its sports&culture dept. The price must have been considerably less than noted in posts above - Sw. counties generally rent out to much less than commercial prices when they rent out to sports.

Sw. championships are not organized as the US. ones. Here, Individual and team championships are held at different places and times, as are events for different age groups. There are no different compettitions based on different fencing ability - all members in good standing are eligble for all events for their gender and age. That is a good thing IMO. This weekends competition thus is a 5-event one, there is no competitive WS in Sweden.

The organizing club did a good job, and I think that I got a good fencing experience for a quite reasonable fee.

[DJ Apostrophe]

North Atlantic section charges $25/event for seniors and $20/event for junior/cadet. Pre-registration is required... no pre-reg, no fence.

[DHCJr]

Pacific Coast is $30 registration, $30 per event.

[esgrimista1]

In Mexico its $120.00 pesos , roughly US $11.60 per event. Your association/division pays a yearly insurance fee. This year all national competitions were held in Mexico City, which is the largest salle in Mexico with about 10 strips. The event itself is well-organized, but growing. This year was the highest amount of fencers ever I think. Fencing is really growing here. Epee is the arm with the most fencers. Also the pentathlon team competes, and they are fierce.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by wflaschka
A friend of mine recently complained about a recent sectionals in Texarkana. Registration at the door amounted to US$100. Pre-registration would have been 1/2 price, but it wasn't advertised.

This price is much too high. Possibly as a result of the price, the event was underattended.

That's part of the equation -- how to cover costs, while giving a disincentive to people who register at the door by the burden they impose vis a vis the referees, and also how to give an incentive for attendence.

How we solve that is my splitting the fee into registration and event fees. As an incentive for attendance, we only require 1 registration fee per family -- so families with many sibilings aren't overburdened. In order to raise the comeptitive field for experience, ratings and number of qualifiers, we waive the registration fee for automatic qualifiers. Of course, we double for entry at the door. In the past 2 years, we have been pretty succesful with this model -- we have raised attendance while at the same time decreasing entries at the door.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Dee EffEll
Its it just me, or is a $35 event fee plus $20 per event an excessive amount to charge for a sectional championship? $55 to fence one event? That's the rate for the NW section this year. Don't remember what it was last year.

This year's Midwest Sectional fees were:
$20.00 registration fee, PLUS
$10.00 per event;
so $30.00 to fence 1 event.
Note that there WAS a $20.00 late fee for not preregistring by a deadline, which was reasonable set at less than 1 week in advance.

Originally posted by wflaschka
A friend of mine recently complained about a recent sectionals in Texarkana. Registration at the door amounted to US$100. Pre-registration would have been 1/2 price, but it wasn't advertised.

This price is much too high. Possibly as a result of the price, the event was underattended.

While the National Office/Executive Committee & various Sub-Committees (namely the Clubs, Divisions, and Sections Committee) pretty much leaves it to Divisions and Sections to set their own fees for qualifying events, IF you feel (as in the Tex-Arkana example) you are really being asked to pay way too much, you can try 'dropping a dime', and ask this committee to review the event in question. That being said, I make no promises that they will really do anything...

As for the Southwest Sectionals that were NOT advertized, I have a little trouble beleiving this: One of the requirement specified in the USFA Operations Manual is that the time, date, and place, of all national qualifying events must be set 3 weeks in advance, and this entails inclusion in official publication, i.e. newsletter, or mailing to members. From the looks of things, the fees are quite reasonable this year: $20.00 includes 1st event; $10.00 per additional event.

What you should also do, is get your hands on a copy of your section's Bylaws: they will probably shed some light on things, as well, such as WHEN various things are supposed to get done, and who is to do them.

There's a lot of people who don't know much about how to run Divisional qualifiers, Division Championships (NOT the same thing!), and Sectional Championships and Qualifiers (ARE the same thing.)
Unfortunately, many of these people are actually running them.


All you can do is get your hands on the relevant policies and documentation and read them carefully (with a highlighter), so you can get people to read the relevant parts.

Have a nice day!

[Chris]

Originally posted by epeemike81
what do you mean it wasn't advertised??? at the end of sectional qualifiers, they hand you a form to pre-reg for sectionals! do they not do this in your section? anybody who qualifies to sectionals doesn't have an excuse for not being aware of when and where it is.

-m

OK, E-Mike, I have talked to you about this before!

The rest of the country does NOT (I repeat NOT!) do everything the same way as you most fortunate people in the NAS!

MANY Sections do NOT require qualification to the Sectional events, and in fact don't event understand it! (Not that I think THAT's a good thing either!)

You really must stop generalizing your obviously limited experience to the rest of the country in this way.

That being said, obviously, wflaschka's friend needs/needed to be better acquainted with the relevant policies, which most certainly require SOME sort of POSITIVE communcations to members regarding qualifying events.

The BIG problem is that

A. if you have not renewed your membership by September 1st, you will NOT be on the National Office mailing list when they mail their fall mailing.

B. If you renew your membership at an event in another division, there is no guarantee that you will receive division mailings in a timely fashion either.

C. Depending on WHEN you renew, and WHEN your section does their mailing, you COULD miss out!
I have known people to NOT renew until they go to a tournament until January! If the Sectional is, let's say, April 5, and they are somewhat organized, they might have already gotten a copy of the section's membership list by then. (If that is actually HOW they go about doing it.)

Have a nice day!

[sallearmourer]

The venue is free they are using the Northwest Fencing Center and Or.Division dosn't paid for it. When you have to paid for the venve it's one thing. They base the fees on what the USFA fees are and regional youth events.

[Chris]

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
North Atlantic section charges $25/event for seniors and $20/event for junior/cadet. Pre-registration is required... no pre-reg, no fence.

This policy, while not explicitly addressed in the USFA Operations Manual IS forbidden by the interpretation of the USFA Clubs, Division, and Sections Committee.

Last year I had a lengthy discussion with Jerry Benson, Chair of this committee. While a (reasonable) late fee may be charged for missing a (reasonable) preregistration date, ONSITE registration MUST be ACCEPTED.

While the benefits of preregistration have been well explained by someone else, and the need to encourage people to plan ahead was also outlined, and I most heartily agree that it's a good thing, I will say that I fail to see how a 2 or 3 week preregistration window is going to help you line up a guy who's been booked since October!

In my experience, the preregistration has really been to speed up the admin' side of running the events, not to call in the emergency back-up ref'!


Have a nice day!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Chris
OK, E-Mike, I have talked to you about this before!

The rest of the country does NOT (I repeat NOT!) do everything the same way as you most fortunate people in the NAS!

MANY Sections do NOT require qualification to the Sectional events, and in fact don't event understand it! (Not that I think THAT's a good thing either!)

well, then, those sections are NOT in compliance with National rules. the USFA REQUIRES that divisions hold qualifiers to their Sectional Championships.

You really must stop generalizing your obviously limited experience to the rest of the country in this way.

oh, I AM sorry! clearly, it was unreasonable for me to think that the rest of the country was actually FOLLOWING THE RULES!

btw, are you SURE they aren't holding sectional qualifiers? they are very often called something else, like "Divisional Championships". however, they still double as qualifiers, and they do (at least in all the divisions I've been in, which are all in NAS, admittedly) tell the competitors and give them entry forms.

The BIG problem is that

A. if you have not renewed your membership by September 1st, you will NOT be on the National Office mailing list when they mail their fall mailing.

B. If you renew your membership at an event in another division, there is no guarantee that you will receive division mailings in a timely fashion either.

C. Depending on WHEN you renew, and WHEN your section does their mailing, you COULD miss out!
I have known people to NOT renew until they go to a tournament until January! If the Sectional is, let's say, April 5, and they are somewhat organized, they might have already gotten a copy of the section's membership list by then. (If that is actually HOW they go about doing it.)

Have a nice day!

no, the big problem is either:

A) his division didn't hold the required qualifier.

or

B) he didn't remember to reg for something that he had to specifically qualify for! that is inexcusable.

[edew]

Originally posted by Chris
This policy, while not explicitly addressed in the USFA Operations Manual IS forbidden by the interpretation of the USFA Clubs, Division, and Sections Committee.

Last year I had a lengthy discussion with Jerry Benson, Chair of this committee. While a (reasonable) late fee may be charged for missing a (reasonable) preregistration date, ONSITE registration MUST be ACCEPTED.

While the benefits of preregistration have been well explained by someone else, and the need to encourage people to plan ahead was also outlined, and I most heartily agree that it's a good thing, I will say that I fail to see how a 2 or 3 week preregistration window is going to help you line up a guy who's been booked since October!

In my experience, the preregistration has really been to speed up the admin' side of running the events, not to call in the emergency back-up ref'!


Have a nice day!

Not to mention the fact that most organizers use previous years' numbers to estimate the number of referees to bring in. In the Pacific Coast Section, we know we're going to get about 20-25 men's sabre fencers, close to 60 men's foilists, around 30 women's foilists, etc. We know how many people, more or less, will attend, so we know what size facility to obtain, how many strips to set up, how many referees to bring in (generally, you determine the number of strips needed, then determine the number of referees based on the number of strips, usually 1.4x the number of strips).

It doesn't help to have 20 referees and fence in a room that has only 8 strips. You'll have 12 referees sitting around twirling their thumbs.

You get extra referees for the following reasons:

1. skill level
2. breaks for some referees for lunch
3. teammate/club conflicts

You should always expect some reasonable number of fencers in each weapon to show up. Use previous years' results to determine what the average and possible growth or decrease might indicate. You don't have to be correct on the dot. Having extra referees will help deal with any extras. You basically need one additional referee for every seven or so fencers.

[Chris]

Originally posted by epeemike81
well, then, those sections are NOT in compliance with National rules. the USFA REQUIRES that divisions hold qualifiers to their Sectional Championships.

oh, I AM sorry! clearly, it was unreasonable for me to think that the rest of the country was actually FOLLOWING THE RULES!

No more unreasonable than in was for me to think that the big-mouths in this country actually READ them!

The USFA Operations Manual absolutely does NOT require that: it leaves that choice to be made at a lower level: In the most recent (2000.09) edition of the USFA Operations manual, Chapter 2, Section 2, it says:

Each division, at its discretion, may designate its Divisional Championships as its qualifying competition to the Sectional Championships

Nowhere does it requre that a qualifier to the Sectional be held, nor does it say so in the current Athlete Programs Handbook.

That said: do I think it makes sense to have it that way, YES; do I think it's a good idea; YES, and do I wish my section did that; YES!

However, it's not explicitly required by what's writt