Floor finishes (Was: Re: Marking off a strip)

[Ed Ploy]

Some unsolicited flooring advice, if you'll indulge me... :^)

I would have to think, not having seen the floor, that if masking tape
would pull the finish up, your feet would do the same after only a few
minutes of scuffing along the strip. This to me would be a safety issue.

Any contractor who did such work really should be brought back at their
expense to do it right, even if they were the low bidder. Proper
preparation of a floor for paint adhesion, and proper preparation and
application of the paint, are basic skills, and anyone in the trade
should know how to do them properly. This is the "workmanlike manner"
phrase included in many bid specs. I had to ask a contractor back
several years ago for a floor, for much less a problem than that. He
lost a fair amount of money on the job as a result, but did make good,
and as a result I included him in future projects, knowing he was
honorable. That's just my $.02, I don't know your circumstances.

Also from experience, I imagine you're right to doubt the current
finish, and the bigger worry is that testing in a remote area may not
give you an idea of what the condition of the finish is in the area of
your strips. The finish could have adhered in one place and not in others.

Although I know you're in a military installation, and may not have much
control over the specification and bidding process, if you can at all,
the next time you go to refinish the floor, put in the specification a
paragraph describing the normal use of the floor, and that the finish
will be tested for proper adhesion using <insert your preferred tape
here>, by placing the tape in the strip area for <an appropriate number
of> days and inspecting for any adhesion problems. Be as specific as
possible. If you're involved in bid meetings, you can discuss this
directly with the bidders. Your bidders can then select their products
with your particular purposes in mind. It doesn't hurt to familiarize
yourself with the product they use and the manufacturer's application
instructions also.

By the way, I'm assuming that this is a tongue and groove type gym floor
of hardwood boards. If it's made up of sheet goods such as masonite or
flakeboard, or softwood floorboards, all bets are off. I've seen tape of
any type pull the finish away from masonite along with the top layer of
the masonite. In those cases, it's not the paint that's the problem,
it's the weak board underneath.

I know that doesn't help immediately, but hope that it may in future.

-Ed Ploy


Amy & Joseph Kormann wrote:

> <snip>
>
> All fine suggestions and I'm going to pick up some painter's tape to
> try. The problem is this is at a military installation and they got the
> *lowest* bidder to do the work. The last time we put down tape, the
> layer of polyurithane came right up. No kidding. Up and away! And that
> was simple masking tape for no more than 4 hours. After some
> discussions, we promised not to put down tape again on their newly
> re-finished floor. I don't know if it's the same contractor again and if
> they decided to do the work correctly this time but we don't want to
> take chances.
>
> The facility is perfect except for this minor problem. A large wood
> floor surrounded by carpeting, tables and chairs with an upstairs
> viewing platform.
>

[Chris Hagen]

In article <3EA02404.8030706@suscom.net>, Ed Ploy <eNOploySPAM@suscom.net>
writes:

>
>Some unsolicited flooring advice, if you'll indulge me... :^)

Hey, Why not!

>I would have to think, not having seen the floor, that if masking tape
>would pull the finish up, your feet would do the same after only a few
>minutes of scuffing along the strip. This to me would be a safety issue.

Well, you, I would have to think that you have laid out very much tape!
;-)

>Any contractor who did such work really should be brought back at their
>expense to do it right, even if they were the low bidder. Proper
>preparation of a floor for paint adhesion, and proper preparation and
>application of the paint, are basic skills, and anyone in the trade
>should know how to do them properly. This is the "workmanlike manner"
>phrase included in many bid specs. I had to ask a contractor back
>several years ago for a floor, for much less a problem than that. He
>lost a fair amount of money on the job as a result, but did make good,
>and as a result I included him in future projects, knowing he was
>honorable. That's just my $.02, I don't know your circumstances.

Ed, you are totally correct here: Most problems of this nature,( and in fact
ALL of them that I have observed in my 20-odd years of fencing at tournaments)
are due to improper surface preparation when additional coats of finish are
applied in later maintenance efforts, not original installation.
It is the second (or third or fourth) applications that come up because either
A. as you mentioned, a lower layer was not properly cleaned and prepared after
several years of use, prior to tha application of further finish. and/or B. a
DIFFERENT finish material was used. Thes days we are all excited by Acrylic
(which probably shouldn't be used on floors...) and Urethane, but we forgot
that these are relatively new materials that weren't available, say 30-40 years
ago...once these are on over other, more organic materials, it might be
expected that the organic materials break down faster under the new conditions.
Of course, there's little reason to expect these organic materials to last
forever to begin with, which brings us back to the whole surface preparation
thing, as you said before.

I WOULD like to point out that I beleive one of the culprits it the chalk that
is used by gymnasts and weigh-lifters: Once this gets around, it seems that the
floor stays slippery for months, even years, and no amount of sweeping and
mopping really seems to get rid of it! I can't beleive this makes for good
bonding when applying additional coats of finish, no matter how compatible.

>Although I know you're in a military installation, and may not have much
>control over the specification and bidding process, if you can at all,
>the next time you go to refinish the floor, put in the specification a
>paragraph describing the normal use of the floor, and that the finish
>will be tested for proper adhesion using <insert your preferred tape
>here>, by placing the tape in the strip area for <an appropriate number
>of> days and inspecting for any adhesion problems. Be as specific as
>possible. If you're involved in bid meetings, you can discuss this
>directly with the bidders. Your bidders can then select their products
>with your particular purposes in mind. It doesn't hurt to familiarize
>yourself with the product they use and the manufacturer's application
>instructions also.

Personally, I am inclined to think that mechanical surface preparation (i.e.
sanding) should always be specified, as opposed to simply cleaning, no matter
HOW thorough: whether modern materials, or older, organic surfaces are being
covered over, it is quite likely that particulate matter is embedded in the
surface, tracked & ground in over the years, or stuck to it before the surface
fully cured when installed (to say nothing of that chalk stuff!)

However, just like auto-mechanics, good, honest contractors are hard to find,
and people who don't know better are often 'sold a bill of goods' and beleive
that the guy with low price is doing the same thing, or beleive him when he
says it isn't necessary.

It's hard to say yes to the higher price, and I rarely do, but as I like to
say: At BEST you get what you pay for: If you DON'T pay, you WON'T get it!

Have a nice day!