Sexism in Fencing (Women's Sabre letter to editor in USFencing magazine)

[Craig]

OK. Just read the letter to the editor from the yahoo that thinks women's sabre is an "unnatural" disciple/sport. I'm going to have to actually get off my *** and mail a reply into the magazine editor.

One of the things that I didn't like was his tone that the US should just go along with what the established Powers That Be (PTB) want because we are not a fencing power.

This person has obviously not been reading this board, or he would know that the US has been making huge strides.

I also want to commend Ms. Johnson on trying to rally support for WS on an international level. We should be trying to take a leadership position in the sport and striving for equal representation in all three weapons.

When I was fencing in the NCAAs, they didn't even allow for women's epee, but by the time I graduated my coach was lobbying for the addition of women's sabre and training some of the early women's sabrists.

What do you think?

Edit: Merged this thread with Sabresque's "sexism" thread.

[Sabresque]

I've been disgusted by recent articles in American Fencing magazine. I just wanted a place to rant, because I know people at my club (even my coaches sometimes) are biased against womens sabre. What is the problem? It's unbelievable that such blatant sexism is around. The person who wrote the editorial in AF claimed womens sabre is "unnatural". How so? Does fencing a so called "man's sport" make ME a man? No. Last I checked, I'm definitly still a woman. Just because we haven't been around a sport as long doesn't give people a right to scapegoat us. Because we call for equality in the Olympics does NOT mean that we're the reason fencing in the big O's is in jeopardy. That's what many people seem to think. Why can't I dream to be in the olympics someday, just like all the other fencers? We work just as hard as everyone else, yet are sometimes looked down upon compared to say womens foilists. It just makes me frusterated. I happen to be better at sabre than foil or epee, should I be punished because I'm a woman sabreur? (insert scream of frustration here)

[mfp]

Originally posted by Sabresque
I've been disgusted by recent articles in American Fencing magazine. I just wanted a place to rant [...] The person who wrote the editorial in AF claimed womens sabre is "unnatural".

I recall it being a "letter to the editor" and not an editorial. The letter writer felt strongly enough about their views to write something and send it to American Fencing. Can you say the same?

[Inquartata]

Breathe, Sabresque! Breathe!

[Mo]

THAT is the person (reprobate?) blackguard, heel, lowlife, miscreant, roperipe, scoundrel, slubberdegullion??

One thing I must say though, if every fencer of every weapon went to this website:
http://www.olympic.org/uk/organisati...rofiles_uk.asp
and wrote every single sponsor a nice email about how fencing is an excellent sport for men and women, how the IOC will happily waste the sponsor's big bucks but when it comes to adding two medals to one of the Olympic's oldest sports for equality for men and women, the situation could change.
It is especially interesting for me that for Women's saber to be added to the sport women's events were cancelled. The men lost nothing.
When there is a name and face on discrimination instead of just some general idea, things change.
Every fencer in this country seriously needs to quit their bichen and start writing. Of course they won't, people like Richard (Dick?) will just blame the women for stirring things up.
I think that very nice picture of the women saber team that won the gold medal in American Fencing should be sent to Kodak.
This is one Kodak moment YOU will never see at the Olympics.
Why?
Because Kodak supports the IOC who discrimates against these very talented women. Now they are discriminating against the foil women too.
Send pictures to Coca Cola, John Hancock, Samsung all the people on the website list.
The IOC would rapidly change it's tune if enough American consumers would get mad and start writing to those corporations.
10,000 members of the USFA across the country. More than a pin dropping ya think?

[Zelda]

Coming from a totally neutral perspective - being australian and all - I think that proding in the right places may be benifical to all involved, even minnows like Australia. So not necessarily lead from the front, but show a united front with other nations to the FIE.

[Sildar]

Originally posted by Sabresque
(insert scream of frustration here)

I'm glad you specified the reason for the scream. Otherwise I would have assumed that you were screaming simply because you're a sabre fencer

I must agree that women's sabre is unnatural though...in the same way it's unnatural for women to have jobs, wear pants rather than dresses, and have the right to vote. Next thing you know, women might start wanting equal pay for equal work or some crazy thing like that, and then the very fabric of our society would crumble.

Whoops. Sorry. I must have been channeling the spirit of Strom Thurmond again

[Jupiter]

Whether it's an article or a letter to the editor, there wasn't a word of protest. Maybe no comment isn't a bad idea, however, by not commenting too much slips by unheeded.

At least he tipped his hand a bit. What was interesting about the letter is that he first begins by drumming up support: "women's saber is in a crisis"....etc etc. then he presents a logical argument, followed by a numerical listing of his points, and then, hidden in a paragraph is "It seems foolish to jeopardize the future of all fencing in the Olympics by insisting on the inclusion of this unnatural and johhny-come-lately event." etc.

When people insist on something, take a stand for heavens sake, it shows they have courage and are willing to risk everything for the sake of something correct.

The world hinges on this. Who is this person who wrote this letter? I never heard of him, is he a coach, an olympiad? I'm curious, bemused it doesn't seem to make sence. In what way is womens saber 'unnatural'? This is the crux of the whole thing about fencing. What makes any weapon more natural than another? If women can put on a uniform and fight for their country, get shot at by the enemy then she can fight saber. I may not chose to fight saber, but someone else has the right to.

[Jupiter]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.....

I don't even fence saber, but I believe in fencing, all three weapons, for both genders and may the best man or woman win, from any country.


I'm sorry Craig , I didn't mean to scream 'elitism' at you.

[sallearmourer]

I remenber this same arugement about women epee being allowed into the Olympics. My wife was one of the first women sabre fencers in this country along with Ruby Watson. In 1979 the first time that the KC Open offfer women epee and sabre she both of those events. Women like Ruby work to hard to get women sabre reconize in this Country. Women sabre bought back a world championship before any other weapon.


Tim

[Peach]

I just figured that letter to the editor was a troll. Anybody not raised under the reign of Queen Victoria who uses the term "unnatural" to describe participation in a sport either has lost a few screws or has deliberately placed the screws in a bucket and is shaking them around to frighten the horses.

[pammie003]

can someone post the letter? I'd like to read it and I don't get the magazine (I'm waiting until I move back home).

Thanks.

[Craig]

See the thread I started: Women's Sabre, The Olympics, and the USFA and vote on the poll also.

I am going to write a letter because some of his points were just so much wrong thinking that it made my head hurt. The one that really got me was the idea that "it lasted 100 years this way, so why change it". That's got to be the worst argument against doing something that you can float out there since every societal injustice was defended by that same argument.

Later,
Craig

[Craig]

Also check the "sexism in fencing" thread for more discussion.

[Sarah]

I think that every one has the right to do whatever they wnat as long as it doesn't hurt someone on the way,like women's sabre in the olympics, who will that hurt? (other then the stupid, showvanisatic pigs out there who think women are meant to serve men and have no opinion other then what their husbands say. errrggg!) I'm going to write many. many letters and make them hate me, because not having womens sabre is not right!!! (even though I don't fence sabre.) Who is with me? (I warn you, if I were you I wouldn't be against me... lol)

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I am all for women´s sabre, or any other sport for either sex, for that matter.

That said, would it be possible to poss the letter-to-the-editor in question here, so that us not in the loop can see for ourselves? I understand if copyright prohibits that, but maybe someone could state positively that that is the case if it is so.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by pammie003
can someone post the letter? I'd like to read it and I don't get the magazine (I'm waiting until I move back home).

Thanks.

Not to mention that women have been kicking some serious *** at WC events in all events, but particularly sabre.

Keeth's ranking aside...excuse me...just HOW many medals have the guys taken in intl. comps in the last few years? How many for the ladies...how many WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS for the ladies???? How many guys have won a world title in any group?

If I had a problem with "unnatural" female sabre fencers, I certainly would NOT be teaching one.

You go, girls!!!!

[edew]

Richard J Gradkowski, unless there's another by that name, was the head of some US fencing coaches something or another (maybe the USFCA, but I'm not sure).

What he's doing still in fencing is beyond my understanding. He alone has set back US fencing for years with outdated protocols for certifying coaches, as well as providing the syllabus for coaches to learn from.

Other than that, his view about sabre being unnatural for women makes absolutely zero sense. Fencing is not natural to anyone. If it were, more people would be doing it on a daily basis. I wouldn't have to explain to people (men and women) why the arm has to be extending before the body moves forward on the lunge. I don't have to tell men and women that they can't cross their feet when moving forward.

So it's not natural. Big wow. But still, women can learn it, compete in it, and do well in it.

In a sport where there's relatively small number of participants, and even smaller number of women participants, it behooves all coaches (with the possible exception of Mr. Gradkowski) to offer as many viable alternatives for prospective fencers. If a prospect has hopes and dreams for sabre, put a sabre in his or her hand. if the prospect has hopes and dreams for epee, put an epee in his or her hand.

Whatever gets a person in the door (and staying in the door) is good business. If that means offering sabre instruction, then so be it. Fencing will be better off with more variety, more diversity, more ingenuity brought in by the multitude of people engaging in the sport and wanting to try different things and different ideas.

[Mo]

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson

That said, would it be possible to poss the letter-to-the-editor in question here, so that us not in the loop can see for ourselves? I understand if copyright prohibits that, but maybe someone could state positively that that is the case if it is so.

Text of the letter is in the "Letter" thread

[Sabresque]

Originally posted by edew
Richard J Gradkowski, unless there's another by that name, was the head of some US fencing coaches something or another (maybe the USFCA, but I'm not sure).

Maybe he's friends with the FOC official two years ago at my area's junior sectionals that told the women sabrists to stop screaming (and carded us for it), but made no effort to stop the men's loud yells.