Elite != Fascism

[Jupiter]

The only word in fencing that I don't like is elite. It sounds facist.

[Craig]

Well, the div I nationals are the elite nationals. There is nothing "facist" about being "elite" or designating something as elite.

Additional discussion not pertaining directly to fencing may be taken to the water cooler.

Cheers,
Craig

[Jupiter]

You must be joking, the word Elite is ingrained in fencing. Why anyone would support this viewpoint is beyond belief! It toally fascist to say 'you can't talk about this' it has everything to do with fencing.

Oh well, forget it.
it's okay,
just do your best,
do what you can......

[Craig]

No mango/jupiter/137111, I'm not joking. Playing the "nazi" trump card when no argument has even started yet is just way over the top.

I suggest that you read some good nonfiction works such as "In Defense of Elitism" before classifying something as fascist. That's a very strong word to play out on this.

Also, the rules for the message board are that you keep off topic stuff to the water cooler and fencing specific to fencing discussion. The water cooler is there for you to gossip and get into political debates, the fencing discussion area is not.

Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Elitism
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

See, *very* different.

Cheers,
Craig

[sallearmourer]

Good for you Craig there are elite fencers. And I for one have a tendency to give a little extra when working on their weapons.

There are people in any field that just outclass others. And they are the best of the best.

Tim

[KBayDog]

Thank you, SA, you hit it right on the head:

They outCLASS others. They outclass, that is, as one would be a "gentleman" instead a "punk."

Their actions speak louder than their words.
They are technically and tactically proficient.
They know themselves.
They respect others.
etc, etc, etc.

Through their ability and attitude, they command respect.

Good for you, SA: Those who put the extra time and effort into their craft deserve the extra attention.

[JEC]

Elite sounds demeaning only when it is not earned. Elite clubs, schools, groups, etc. In our sport, you earn being elite. Ability, dedication, and lots of practice. Although not everybody is able to crank into the top 5, everybody who is healthy and wants to put what it takes can get to div. 1. What it takes is not easy.

[Jupiter]

When I hear the word elite, I don't feel demeaned, I feel a little uncomfortable, like: what are we building here.

It seems there are so many different divisions already, I never understood the word Elite, this explains why, any time I'm applauded, I feel a little uncomfortable, it's something I feel uncomfortable with.

There doesnt seem to be very much difference in your definitions; in fact one would have to be an elitist first before becoming a fascist....it's not too far off the mark, and the tendancy for outsiders to try to find a nitch in elitism is rife in history, I suggest you read The Diary of Ann Frank.

[sallearmourer]

Not only have I read Ann Frank diary, I visted the Ann Frank musem in Boise Id I have climb the stairs to where she wrote it.

It's because of people like me and Megrs and KBayDog and my son at West Point. That you have the freedom you enjoyed so much.

Unlike you I don't use two or three different names for my post and sign them with my real name.

Tim Loomis
USA RET CSM

[pkt]

Jupiter,

Do take Craig's advice and find out what 'facism', 'nazism' and the other -isms are beofre using scuh loaded words for something you are not comfortable with.

As the head god or the planets, you should object to elitism

"Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,
2. stringent socioeconomic controls,
3. suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and
4. typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control."

Currently the US have succeeded in achieving points #3 and 4.

A lot is being done under the Homeland Defence laws that may conribute towards the first part of #1.



"Elitism
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."

Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: elite
Pronunciation: A-'lEt, i-, E-
Function: noun
Etymology: French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere
Date: 1823
d : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

Ha ha, a French word! Perhaps in this day and age we should ban the use of this word, eh?

I prefer this M-W explanation to the one Craig proffered. I have trouble with the 'by virtue of their PERCEIVED superiority..."

OTOH, the M-W definition the 'position or education' imply the position and education are earned not just perceived.

--)----------

This is from the iAmerican Spirit - political dictionary site:
http://www.iamericanspirit.com/politicaldictionary.html

"fascism - a nationalistic, authoritarian, anti-communist movement founded by Benito Mussolini in Italy in 1919. Fascism was a response to the economic hardship and social disorder that ensued after the end of World War I.

"The main elements of fascism were pride in the nation, anti-Marxism, the complete rejection of parliamentary democracy, the cultivation of military virtues, strong government, and loyalty to a strong leader.

"Fascists wore a uniform of a black shirt and and used a greeting derived from ancient Rome of the outstretched arm. Mussolini's Black Shirts (as they were known) seized power in 1922.

"A movement modeled on fascism, Germany's National Socialism (Nazism) also began its rise in the 1920s. In 1936 in Spain, General Francisco Franco's fascists seized power and precipitated a three-year civil war, with Franco victorious.

"Italian fascism collapsed with the death of Mussolini and the end of World War II. Although since then there have been South American military regimes that have adopted some of the terminology and concepts of fascism, fascism in its classic form is considered to have died with Mussolini.

"Sometimes the term is used now as a term of abuse, triggered by any real or imagined outbreak of authoritarian thought or behavior."

So, Jupiter, none of these definitions will fit your dislike of the word 'elite'.

Besides, what's wrong with being an elite if you've earned it. If you, Jupiter, became world champion, then you are def. an elite.

Fencing by its nature of one person besting the other encourage elitism.

In fencing organisation, we always have to find a proper balance between promoting elite fencing versus popularising the the sport. One without the other the sport will not succeed. This is especially so if government funding - an idea alien to the US, I know - is concerned.

You might have read the Chinese idiom I used in other threads:
Red flowers need green leaves to compliment them.

Tranlstion:
Without the plain looking green leaves the beauty of the red flowers will not be apprecaited.
The good need the bad to show that they are good.

So, as one who is not an elite, does this idiom make you feel more needed?


PK

[wflaschka]

I know how the term "elite" is often used as a lead-in to some unsavory isms, like class-ism, racism, fascism.

The usage I like pertains more to achievement, not designation. (I've read In Defense of Elitism too!!) In the best of all possible worlds, elitism applies to those who advance by merit. In a meritocracy, the best, most apt people are at the top. The elite strategists are generals, the elite businessmen are CEOs.

There are some holes in utopias of this sort, but it's easy to agree that we don't want to rank people on other (historical) criteria, like color, wealth, connections.

Who wants to say: "My doctor may not know anything about fixing my broken arm, but my HMO says he does have a nice shape to his skull."

Of course elitism doesn't reflect the world as it is, but it reflects some of the world. It's something to aspire to, because it's how reward is meted out in an equal society. Sports can be quite clean in this regard.

[pkt]

Sport is not that clean:

Have you heard the latest about how the US Olympics Committee was found to excuse some athletes who flunked the drug test so that they did compete in the big events.

One who benefited from this and ended up with a gold medal in the men's 100m was Carl Lewis.

PK

[Jupiter]

Well, I can see that many people feel differently about the word Elite. I never suggested taking it out of the dictionary, but I felt and still do, that we shouldn't have such a category in the usfa. As far as defending the country, you know, braveheart, there are many people who stick their necks out for the united states without wearing a uniform, I'm one of them and I do so without screaming about it on a chat board. I enjoy the creative flair of the board, many people have many different names that we use to express ourselves.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by pkt
Sport is not that clean: Have you eard the latest about how the US Olympics Committee has found to excuse some athletes who flunked the drug test so that they did compete in the big events.

I agree, sport can sometimes be not that clean. (On another thread, I found myself giving advice on how to win over judges.)

But one can also look at the tremendous leveling effect it has. Atheletes have broken through class, gender, color and political barriers. If someone is allowed to compete, then their ability (merit) ought to be the sole indicator of result. This is the ideal of sport -- which is why we become so outraged when it doesn't work this way.

I think outrage can be an indicator of how important elitism is in culture. It's natural to expect the most capable people to occupy the highest places, and frustrating when that doesn't happen. If merit isn't rewarded, how do we excel? How do we find role models? &etc.

[Craig]

Jupiter, now that we've dispensed with the "charged" words (the to be unsaid "ism" that got me going on my rampage), I can see where you are going with your statements.

Please correct me if I am misinterpreting you:
You are stating that you feel uncomfortable with the USFA designating an "elite" class of fencers. You feel that this disrupts the level playing field of the sport and can lead to segmentation (cliques?) or snobbishness on the part of the different "classes".

Is that a fair interpretation?

If that's the case, then I think we've got a good starting point for a discussion here. The topic is one which the USFA struggles with constantly, and there is a whole chicken and egg argument that goes with it.

Let me know if I interpreted your thesis correctly and we can get into a good discussion from there.

Cheers,
Craig

[sallearmourer]

You know I been in this game a long time and have know and fence many of the elite fencers of this country. Bob and Mike Marx,
Peter Westbrook Steve Monmando and found them to be true gentleman and I have see them after a bout explaining to a newcomer how to improve their game,

Iris and Flecia Zimmermans has taken my daugthers under there wings at times. Yes these are elite fencers . I not saying all repersent the group well but the majority of the true elite fencers gives back alot to the sport. Emily Cross is another one that is a elite fencer but a true lady and person. Erin Smart is another true lady and person.

Like I say before you have in any sport elites that are just out flat better then others. The best of the best weather do to training natual ablity the way they handle pressure. There are people that is just flat out better.


Tim

[edew]

Since I was the one who "started the ball rolling", let me say that the term "elite" was applied to the Division I Nationals as the offiical descriptive term for that event. USFA was the one who called the Division I Nationals the "Elite" Nationals. I didn't write that for the sole purpose of inflaming anyone's passions.

Now, if someone were to say that USFA was wrong in calling it elite, and perhaps should have called it something else, well, that's a fair claim. Saying that it's fascist is going overboard.

USFA has to do something in terms of marketing to make fencing look good. Elite is a nice word to do so. There's Elite Gymnastics near where I live. There's Elite Men's Wear near where I live. There's also an adult book/video store called Elite something or another near where I live (don't recall the full name...not being a frequent patron of them, go to another instead ).

So "elite" is a good term to evoke all the coolness of fencing. Heck of a lot better than Division I. Division I doesn't evoke any particular feeling on people outside of fencing. Is I better than II? Being #1 is better than #2. But being a "1" is worse than a "2", both of which are way worse than being a "9", especially if you're interviewing for an "outfront" positions with Hooters.

Numbers don't have good evocative appeal because people outside the loop don't know how to calibrate the numbers. Is a score of 67 good? For an 18-hole golf game, it's great. For a 9-hole golf game, it's pretty bad. For 10 frames of bowling, it's the pits. For a football game, that's pretty good. For a basketball game, that's pretty bad. For fencing, who knows?

So, in terms of marketing, use ideas that provide absolute meanings. Elite is always associated with high-class, top-notch, blah-blah. No one sells elite crack-cocaine. There aren't any elite 'hoes, but there are elite call girls.

A four star restaurant may have an elite wine list or menu. Burger King isn't going to fight McDonalds by claiming they have an elite menu.

Of course, by using that word, you do force segmentation. "Elite" is like "luxurious." If you're selling a Mercedes, you use "elite". But you also know that your marketing isn't all possible drivers. Your market are those who want to drive an "elite" automobile. That's why you can also charge a premium on it.

Going back to fencing, I don't know of a more appropriate word to describe the Elite Nationals in a more succinct way. These fencers are the top-level fencers of the nation. They are the elite fencers. Using a vague descriptor such as "Division I" does not sell well with the media.

[edew]

Originally posted by sallearmourer
You know I been in this game a long time and have know and fence many of the elite fencers of this country. Bob and Mike Marx,
Peter Westbrook Steve Monmando and found them to be true gentleman and I have see them after a bout explaining to a newcomer how to improve their game,

Iris and Flecia Zimmermans has taken my daugthers under there wings at times. Yes these are elite fencers . I not saying all repersent the group well but the majority of the true elite fencers gives back alot to the sport. Emily Cross is another one that is a elite fencer but a true lady and person. Erin Smart is another true lady and person.

Like I say before you have in any sport elites that are just out flat better then others. The best of the best weather do to training natual ablity the way they handle pressure. There are people that is just flat out better.


Tim

Steve Mormando!?! I like him and he's a great guy. True gentleman? I don't think even he would call himself that.

[sallearmourer]

Edew I know that Steve wouldn't call himself but I can.

Some people would call me a ''elite" armourer and I would take pride in it. 30 years of hard work at and going though several different stages of machines and knowing what each will do.


Tim Loomis

[Jupiter]

well, edew, you write well, and i have to respond to your paragraph. Elite is a term that may have a negative from the perspective of international fencers - i thought. i just thought it looked a little 'elitist' ....actually, i never use the term myself, so, maybe that's the reason i feel it has a negative ring to it.

the car thing, the call girls. wow, where have you been, however, under the surface [if you will pardon], there's all sorts of stuff that needs scrubbing, but i don't want our group to be associated with like designer drugs scenes - but i also realize that the true meaning of the word elite, would imply the very best, the cream of the crop, which would imply all the way through, through and through, sparkling clean....etc.

it's your call...