Strategy against flicks.

[drizzt_do_urden]

I've just read the thread on flicks. And as entertaining as it was, it mainly seemed to discuss the "morality", terminology, and history of flicks. How about some suggestions on strategy against flick attacks that could actually be usefull in fencing?

I'll start with my strategy, as a discussion opener. Although I must say I'm fairly new to fencing, so I'd welcome any advise from more advanced fencers on flaws with my strategy, or better ideas for me to try.

Most of the people I bout against do a lot of flicks. I haven't learned to flick yet, as I have been trying to just get the basics down. When I bout flickers I have had some success with letting the distance close a little closer than I'd feel comfortable with a lunge attacker type of opponent. Then as soon as I sense my opponents arm drawing back for a flick I just do a straight lunge, and often score a point as an attack into preperation. The trick for this seems to be timing, and keeping track of their footwork to determine if they are feinting a flick attack or really trying to attack.

Any other ideas on how I can learn to work against flick attacks? Also, will learning to flick help against people who flick, or will it just give me one more attack method to use?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Mischa]

Arghhhhhhhhhh it's so rare to see a flick attack like that.

Most people have fast running attacks that may end in a flick, or they circular siest parry your attack and flick you on the shoulder / back.

[Kling]

true ^.^

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by drizzt_do_urden

Any other ideas on how I can learn to work against flick attacks?

2 general types of flick attacks: marching flicks, opportunity flicks.

[1] Marching attacks with absence of blade, ending in a flick. These are when the opponent runs you down with bent-arm, blade-swinging movements. A counter-attack will be caught with a flying parry and riposte to the back.

Strategies:

- Fall back and use sabre techniques to break up the opponent's march. Stutter steps, changed rhythms, front foot taps, distance grabs. This "noise" complicates the normal process of running you over, it psychologically enjambs the opponent so they don't feel safe charging you. Exploit any openings this creates, when their footwork slows out of necessity, or take over initiative.

- Jump back a few steps and establish point-in-line. You have to be standing still for at least one of your opponent's marching steps. (I've found it helps to appel (tap the floor w/ front foot) when creating a line, as the director and opponent are both more likely to notice.) Your arm should be slightly bent (not visible thru the fencing jacket) because a truly straight arm engages the shoulder, locks the elbow, and complicates derobements. Let the opponent impale and see what the director thinks.

- Let the distance get close. When the opponent is near enough, they will naturally have to conclude their marching attack with a final step, lunge or fleche to try to hit you. The hard part of the attack is over (the wait), and you have the reveal (the delivery point of the attack). Once you have invited the attack into its final action, be ready to retreat quickly and get out of the way. Parry riposte.

- Reach out and force a parry. As the opponent's blade swings around, reach out and smash it with a big beat middle-blade (if your follow-up works, it will be called a parry). After this blade collision, neither you nor your opponent will have a good grip or good aim... but he's still moving forward, and all you have to do is point your straight arm at him. You'll hit something, ergo attack stopped. Be sure to keep retreating until your parry -- remember, the opponent's goal is to have you swishing around for his blade while he gets close.

- Take the attack before opponent can start their march. If these attack frustrate you, then just launch your own long attack when the director says "fence." Be sure you hit something.

- Let the opponent march at you as normal. Let your hand go out of line... lean a little... show him that juicy shoulder. When he finishes, be ready with a sixte parry or high tierce block. You've just invited his attack on a target you assigned -- he's attacking, but you're controlling the action. You ought to have a good success rate.

- For certain kinds of flickers (those that rely on blade whippiness), you can step into an attack and take it across your shoulders. It will land flat. This is also true of many actions -- since the dangerous part of the blade is the tip, getting inside the tip = safety. The cool thing about the flick is, if you do it right, it's not very sensitive to distance in this way (the tip is not going forward towards the opponent, but down from above, so lateral distance is less important). Advanced fencers won't be caught by step-ins.

(These strategies are good for many marching attacks, since the frustrating thing about them is not the final hit, it's the obfuscation and chaos that tends to open you up.)

[2] Opportunity flicks, as with beat-flicks or ripostes to shoulder from near distance. These are tougher, since they happen near instantaneously.

Strategies --

- Treat them like normal extensions. When taking any parry, you take one retreat. Always. This will put you in proper distance for a normal parry riposte. The important thing to remember about flick is: they're not magical, they can be parried.

- Assess the flick as a sabre cut (arc attack). In sabre, cuts are defeated by blocks. Protect your shoulder with a 3, your back with a 5. Blades might wrap around these blocks and still land... so make your block further away from your body. This causes your blade to intersect the opponent's further from your body, and whipovers are defeated. [From http://www.geocities.com/fencinglessons/3.html: Parrying is the method of deflecting a point attack. Blocking is the method of deflecting a cutting or flick attack. The difference is obvious but most instructors and textbooks prefer to use the terms interchangably. They are wrong. Parrying is done while moving your blade. Blocking is done with the hand and blade held relatively still.

- Lean back. I never really counsel changing body position because it can cause many problems. But if you see the flick coming, leaning back will sometimes fubar the hit -- the foible lands flat on your shoulder. Coupled with a step in and a dropped hand, you can start your infighting routine with the opponent at a severe disadvantage.

Originally posted by drizzt_do_urden

Also, will learning to flick help against people who flick, or will it just give me one more attack method to use?

Yes, and yes.

Knowing flicks yourself will allow you to better understand their weakenesses, as well as the tactical situations that lead to the delivery of a flick. You can then exploit the weaknesses, or manage tactics so flicks can't be delivered.

And, if you have a good flick... it's always good to have a move as natural and fast as blinking an eye to get a few touches per tournament bout. Cultivate a parry flick-riposte that you can use reflexively when the distance is right. You'll be getting touches you don't have to work for.

Lastly, generally speaking, if you can defeat an opponent's flick game, they will be either [a] beaten, or [b] forced to change away from a flick game. At a recent tournament, the advanced fencers were hard-core flickers. By the finals, the all-flick fencing was gone. This is because flicks can be beaten; the flick is too "shallow" to be the only tactic for an advanced fencer.

[FoilyGeezer]

Two things I've noticed when fencing intermediate fencers who flick that help take away their flicking gusto. The first assumes a right handed fencer against a right handed fencer or lefty against lefty.

1.) Approach them with your blade in six. This does three things. It makes the distance you have to parry that much less. It freaks them out when your blade is actually outside theirs (in order to launch their flick they need to disengage or otherwise decieve to the other side of your blade. If done properly it covers a lot of target area up. If your opponent decides to laterally flick you'll almost always see the attack in preparation and it becomes a matter of mechanics to take his blade outside and parry riposte. If he opts to flick your back from on high, it's a quick shift to tierce and then you can opt to attack if you have a clear target or retreat out of range (but watch his remise).

2.) The second is a tactic I found last night fencing against an opponent who used a marching attack with a flick. It's the old stand there and take it defense. I'd parry the attack as it came in. At first I tried getting back far enough to riposte, but the opponent was expecting it and prepared to parry riposte if I got back in time, or remise if I didn't. I realized that my opponents tactic was predicated on the assumption that anyone you run at is going to back up. So I stood there, parried the incoming attack and lowered my shoulder so that my opponent found themselves running into a very solid object (me). After several attacks failed in this manner I had my opponents territory, rhythm, and just started sniping with straight attacks in preparation, simple disengages, or if my opponent went high, parry ripostes. Making the opponent keep distance took the format of their attack away, thus ruining it as a viable point scorer.

I guess my point here is that when you asked the original question, you were looking for a counter to the move. Sometimes you don't need to defeat the move if you can defeat the tactic. One of the things I've started doing is concentrating on taking the initial attack with no intention of riposting unless I have a very large very open target. To defeat a particular attack, watch the way your opponent prepares and delivers (ideally when they're fencing someone else) and then find a way to make their attack conditions awkward or unlikely. If the opponent doesn't have a big bag of tricks this can easily shift the momentum of the bout to you.

[drizzt_do_urden]

wflaschka and foilygeezer,

Thanks for the new ideas. They will give me some new things to try out against the flickers I fence.




Mischa,

I read your reply, and several of your other posts on other threads, and I was wondering if you ever have anything constructive to say?

[Jupiter]

thank you mississippi. how is your ankle?
i'll save your reply to fencing folder, it's very good.

[Sarah]

I happen to use the same strategy as you when it comes to flicking, except I add a quick parry into it. And I do understand the parry/riposte, I use it against my mom. (its usually a sarcastic comment, my mom's my best friend.) I'm here for the main reason of learning while talking. (because I'm homeschooled, I don't have the usual amount of social interaction, which is fine by me!) lol. Fliks are hard to defend against. I still am not good at it yet. But when I am I'll tell you!

PS~When I say stuff that sounds mean, usually I meant something else, I never try to be mean unless I hate someone (which is rare, but some people are on my list *cough*buttface*cough* (you don't know them)) Thank you.

[wflaschka]

It looked, for 1/2 day or so, like we'd have a good thread on flicking.

Now the thread is hi-jacked into something that lets Mischa repair his wounded pride (?) from a 1-sentence put-down. (I don't actually believe Mischa is that soft.)

Mischa may sometimes make noise on the bboards. drizzt_do_urden may sometimes complain about the noise. These are user priviledges. What's with the long discussion?

(FWIW, I try to ignore the noise as much as possible, and hope that others kindly ignore my noise when I post on an off day).

Can we get back to the topic? Or did we finish the topic off? Should I stop watching it?

[Sarah]

drizzt_do_urden:

When you go for the 'counter-attack', throw a parry into it so you have the right-of-way. That's the only thing that I can think of right now. Good luck!

[drizzt_do_urden]

Mischa,

Good grief you are hot headed. What are you talking about me "laying into you"? I merely asked if you had any relevant information regarding my question about flick strategy. And yes, I do have a right to ask anyone if they have any helpful advice regarding a query I post.

I do have another question for you, and any of the other more experienced fencers, regarding another post you put up regarding flicks on the thread entitled "flick defense".

Originally posted by Mischa
If someone steps in / out on my flick attack, I make a point of tightening my grip and landing the blade painfully flat on their arm.

Is this type of move legal? I thought that intentionally landing hard flat shots fell under that category of vicious fencing and was card-able. If this move is legal, what is the appropriate counter move to it? A riposte hard flat hit to the arm?

[drizzt_do_urden]

Originally posted by wflaschka
It looked, for 1/2 day or so, like we'd have a good thread on flicking.

wflaschka,

If everyone took the time and effort to post such an in depth response as your original reply about flick strategy, we would have had a great thread on flicking. Thank you again.

By the way, I've read several of your other posts, and you are one of my favorite posters on this forum. You always seem to have relevant intelligent advice.

[Mischa]

drizzt_do_urden:

I read your reply, and several of your other posts on other threads, and I was wondering if you ever have anything constructive to say?

This seems more offensive than it is an 'innocent question'.

In response to your second point, yes, that move is legal, and the correct response is a parry in the first place. I have only ever received one red card in my whole career, and not for that reason. But it's rare for me to perform that move, unless I want to scare them.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by drizzt_do_urden
By the way, I've read several of your other posts, and you are one of my favorite posters on this forum. You always seem to have relevant intelligent advice.

Thank you, drizzt_do_urden, that's very kind of you to say! I'm very glad when I can be helpful.

[Craig]

Fixing thread and deleting non-relevant posts. You are free to start it up again in the water cooler.

wflaschka - Thanks for taking the time to explain your defensive strategies against the flick. This is looking like a good discussion.

Cheers,
Craig

[wflaschka]

Well... um... suddenly I have nothing to say. LOL.

I'm thinking of building a "flicking" target out of a buzz box and a piece of lamé fastened over a padded block of wood.

The buzzer would be under the wooden "shoulder", and attached to a long (6 ft) body cord that would lead to a bayonet plug.

The user would plug an electric weapon into the chord, and start flicking the shoulder. Each registered hit would cause a "chirp" from the box. I've done a test run, and my buzzer will make adequate noise even for very short durations.

The goal would be to mostly replace my own shoulder as a flick-target when I give lessons. After even just 20 repetitions of a beat lunge shoulder-flick, I start cursing. And it seems to me the flick (as riposte) is quite mechanical, so a mechanical device would be okay.

I've seen one of these flick-targets (at the old Metropolitan Fencing Club in NYC) used by Zaddick Longenbach. Has anybody seen such a thing before? Does it work?

[Sarah]

I agree with drizzt_do_urden, wflaschka has great advice! You really do! I with that I knew that much, if I did I'd be great! Well, see you all later! (I'm going to try to sleep)

[Craig]

Hmm...Haven't seen one of those. I'll have to try building one. Of course, mine will be a 2-prong instead of bayonet.