How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?

[Sarah]

How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?

EX/ winning most tournaments, always getting top 8 at NACs.

I know that it takes time but I would like to make an estimate.I'm a pretty good fencer, especially for 1 1/2 years. And I've got high expectations.

Thanks!

Sarah

[wflaschka]

What sort of variables are you working with?

Do you train against better fencers?
Do you do footwork?
How often?
Who has your coach developed?
&etc.

It's quite hard to say. I've seen fencers go from weak to world-class in 4 years.

[d0gz|song]

I've seen fencers go from weak to world-class in 4 years.

Just curious, could you name some of those fencers?

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Sarah
How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?

There is the old martial arts story of the student coming to the master and asking how long it will take -- the master says 10 years; the student, not happy with his response because it doesn't fit with his time frame says, but if I train twice as hard, how long will it take? -- the master says 20 years. The point being, is that you have to be focused on doing the daily committment and not thinking that quantity is better than quality of activity -- if you are so focused on an end goal, how can you be aware of the steps that you need to get there??

If you keep to a daily regime that focuses on doing things correctly, eventually the results will come. Fencing, as with anything in life, you get out of it what you put into it.

We have in our division a girl in that started out with such promise -- however, her parents seem to think that they can buy her way for results. What they fail to realize is that in fencing, your results are indicitive of your commitment and practice -- just because you take lessons from an Olympic coach does not mean that you will be an Olympian. The major comment from other people is how much her skills have deterioated -- usually in fencing your skills increase as time goes on.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by d0gz|song
Just curious, could you name some of those fencers?

Sure. In the spirit of inspiring climbers... some of these fencers I knew.

After college, I burnt out for 1.5-2 years or so, and didn't fence during that period. When I last saw him, Cliff Bayer was a skinny little push-over; when I returned from my hiatus, I got on strip across from him at the NYFC. He'd gotten bigger and I thought he was his older brother (whose name escapes me). I forget whether it was a 5- or 10-touch bout, but I didn't score on him, didn't get close. And I wasn't that bad. I was schooled. Later I found out who he was, and how he'd "bloomed" and been winning national level stuff.

Zaddick Longenbach, who now runs Metro Fencing in New York. I fenced with him while a sophomore or junior in high school, at a cadet training camp. He was not so difficult to beat. Before I left high school, he was walking all over me. He kept getting better, tho maybe not world class at the time. A few short years later, he's on national teams. I have a video of him fencing at a World Cup (?) in Cuba.

There are others who I didn't really know. I was even with Dan Kellner when I was early in college, and then by the end of it I found him untouchable. He's still climbing, afaik.

There are also the sisters Zimmerman, both got good fast.

And Emily Cross started fencing age 9, and at 15 she made the US World Championship team. She just won the world cadet women's gold.

These people got good fast, by toiling and practicing. Then there are the others, who achieved the "next level" by slow toil and dedicated, painful practice.

[Kling]

sorry to tell u but it impossible to reach the highest level. U cant say ok Now i am the best and i dont need to train any more. U all the time find something new that u didnt knew before. So u cant say the highest level. cuz u all the time learning some thing new.

[Mo]

If you are fencing to win NAC's and just starting or to go to the Olympics, you are in for heartache.
Fencing is one step at a time. Although you fence to win, focusing only on winning is silly.
It is like saying, I want to be in the New York Philharmonic and how do I get there??
Well, you start and practice your a$$ off. You may or may not make it but you have to really love what you are doing to put in the necessary time and have the necessary patience to achieve your ambitions.

Some people work really hard and never make it to the top because they don't have a good enough coach or enough time to practice. Or they don't have the right set of brains and skill required to be the top fencer.
They get distracted by crowds and cannot hold on to their concentration when there are people yelling, buzzers buzzing and anouncers telling you "if you are not a fencer or a referee to get off the floor," they just do not make it.
It is good to have goals but reasonable goals.
Everyone wants to win but only a few people do.

[Mischa]

I've been training around 7 or 8 years, and I'm just starting to go to internationals.

[FoilyGeezer]

The margin between a good performance and a bad one is remarkably slim. The ability to put in consistent performances at the highest level of your athletic potential is what your goal should be. Time is of little consequence.

At points in any sport, you are apt to reach performance plateaus. Eventually you reach one where you realize you are making the best use of the skills that you have. If you are lucky, then that isn't until you reach the top of the sport.

If reaching the top of the sport is more important than reaching your highest potential, you're probably setting yourself up for eventual disaster. Improvement in any martial art is as much a voyage of self-discovery as it is a learned series of physical manipulations. The better you get, the more apparent that becomes.

You will find that you will derive much more satisfaction from taking the sport one bout at a time rather than one tournament at a time. When I step out onto a strip, my goal is to score single light points against my opponent (it makes the directors job soooo much easier....I'm just polite that way ;-) until I win. I try not to look beyond the bout I'm in because that leads to a loss of concentration (when you end up worrying about people you might not have to fence at all).

How long will it take to reach the top. That's an unanswerable question. What's more, it's irrelevant.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Nicely put, Foil Geezer, your concentration is easier to maintain when you take it one point at a time.

Honestly, I can't see why I'd want to train and train and train just so I could go to international competitions. I like fencing at my little level and thats it. I have different goals in my life which take precedence to something which I find to be merely egotistical. Those goals being a wife, education/career, and living my life in faith and hope. I can't see where a national title falls into that.

Just because I think this for myself doesn't mean that I look down upon those who do. Its just means that its not for me.

All that said, I don't see a problem with training and attending tournaments in the Houston area and building comradery with fencers over there, I just have no intention to make it a main goal in my life.

[haggis]

Sarah

Ok, leaving the fencing philosophy aside, it's still a hard question. There are so many different factors that it's probably impossible to make an accurate estimate. Also, remember that most people never make the level that you're aspiring to. Wflaschka's questions and examples probably give you the best idea of what's possible if you have a lot of positive elements going your way (talent, youth, enthusiasm, good coach, good fencers to train with, etc, etc.). If you've got all these bits, then what's to stop you

[Flunge]

What are our goals really when we say we want to "get good"? WE want to start winning and have more positive feedback and make ourselves feel good? Then the fact that we're fencing is just happenstance -- we might as well be competing in National Flatulence Competitions. The sport is just a means to an end.

If you like Fencing, work every time you fence or drill or whatever to get better. Enjoy. You'll get better. And spend a lot of money.


Anybody know where I can get hooked up with some National Flatulence Competitions, btw?

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by Flunge
What are our goals really when we say we want to "get good"? WE want to start winning and have more positive feedback and make ourselves feel good?

I once had an English teacher define eudaimonia as that particular joy you feel when you're doing something at which you excel. For example, a concert pianist experiences a sort of "wholeness" and "well-being" when he's playing, which your average schmo will never know.

We try to excel at Fencing for the same reason. Not for the groupies, not for the feedback ("fencing? what's fencing?"), not for the piles of money. But because, when you are excellent, you feel the excellence inhabiting you. For a moment, we're trans-human, magnified & multiplied.

This is one reason I feel ambivalent about recreational fencers -- without hard work and constant stress, they may never know the joy of being excellent. But at least they have enthusiasm (gr. enthousiasmos), inspired, or shot through with fervor (illumined by the 'light of god').

(BTW -- I haven't been able to corroborate this particular definition of eudaimonia via dictionary, but I still like it. Someday I'll get to an OED.)

[Boo Boo]

Wow, Wflaschka, how beautifully put :-)

I know what you mean (not that I achieve it very often ).

Boo

[Sarah]

Thanks you guys (and girls) so much! I work hard and I have a lot of fun, while I try to acheive my goals (ex/ getting top 8 in Summer Nationals, getting on the US women's foil team, competing at an international standerd) I do a lot of physical activities to increase my stamina and I'm trying to be patient (not one of my strong suits, but I know that it takes a LOT of time and effort to acheive worthwhile things) I know that I have plenty of time (especially since I'm only 14, and just started 1 1/2 years ago) but I like to plan things. (most of the time unexpecting things happen and my plans change, but I have fun doing it!)

And again, THANKS!!!

Sarah

[Mischa]

Top 8 in the US after 1.5 years training?

[Sarah]

yeah, I have very high expectations of myself, but I know that I can do it, otherwise I wouldn't even try.

[wflaschka]

Sarah -- by being 14 and having these goals, and even just being aware of national and world tournaments, you're already in the 80th percentile. Many fencers don't even know what to shoot for.

Step 1 of moving a mountain -- Say: "I'm gonna move that mountain."

All you have ahead of you now is some hard work.

[a517dogg]

Tudor (Saitoc) did it.

[Mischa]

You must have got pretty good pretty quickly, Sarah. But still, if you think you can achieve that then go for it. Let us know how you get on.