How long does it take to reach the higher levels of fencing?

[Mischa]

11 years is a looooooooong time.

[Zelda]

maybe, but it goes waaay too quickly!!! Sarah I'm not offended at all that you got my age wrong...in fact I'm flattered you thought I was older....most people seem to think I'm younger!

[corinna2u]

Originally posted by sabrebelle
The OED won't help much. Eudaimonia isn't listed. The closest I could find was eudemonic, which is listed as

"1. Conducive to happiness; viewed as conducive to happiness.

1865 J. GROTE Treat. Mor. Ideas vi. (1876) 72 The former of these is the eudæmonic worth of actions."

Interesting concept, though. It might explain why you can win a tournament, but still not be happy if you didn't fence well.

The Random House Dictionary of the English Language 2nd Ed, unabridged, 1983

eudemonia (you di moe knee uh), n. 1. happiness; well-being. 2. Aristotelianism. happiness as the result of an active life governed by reason. also: eudaemonia [Greek: eudaimonia]

Greek philosophy....hope this helps.

[corinna2u]

As a mother of a home-schooled fencer with the same goals...I say go for it!

My son fenced for a summer (for about 4 months) two plus years ago. Then we moved out of country where there was no fencing.

Now that we are back, he has been fencing since the end of January (3 months). Everyone keeps cautioning him on his goals. He just shrugs it off.

Last weekend, he finished first in mixed novice. And seventh in mixed open. (Our club coach finished fifth.)

Now he smiles because no one in our club cautions him any more. He is becoming known as "the lefty that thinks".

So, again, I say set your short term and long term goals and GO FOR IT!!!

[Sarah]

Thanks corinna2u! I'm a lefty too!

[nahouw]

Originally posted by corinna2u
As a mother of a home-schooled fencer with the same goals...I say go for it!
My son fenced for a summer (for about 4 months) two plus years ago. Then we moved out of country where there was no fencing.
Now that we are back, he has been fencing since the end of January (3 months). Everyone keeps cautioning him on his goals. He just shrugs it off.
Last weekend, he finished first in mixed novice. And seventh in mixed open. (Our club coach finished fifth.)
Now he smiles because no one in our club cautions him any more. He is becoming known as "the lefty that thinks".
So, again, I say set your short term and long term goals and GO FOR IT!!!

I give kudos on how you support your son in his endeavors, and you are obviously a proud parent. But I think you do have to look at the reality of what it takes to become a top level fencing competitor, if that is what his goal is, and you if you want to financially back him in his goal.

If everyone is cautioning him on his goals, perhaps everyone is helping him by bringing it into perspective -- people in fencing have seen alot, and everyone knows everybody, and if many people are cautioning him, then maybe it is something that you should listen to.

How old is your son? By the time that Emily Cross was 12 years old, she WON all the novice, age groups and open competitions in the Metro Division -- the Metro Division is the strongest Division in the country -- which Division are you from? Emily has been a member of the Cadet AND Junior World Teams (not to mention the Senior teams she has been on) since she has been 12 yrs old. Is your son of the same calibur and does he have the same credentials? If your son is at the age of 16 or later, and has not had these accomplishmnets, no coach will look at him for a scholarship. As a parent that homeshcools, if you have been focusing on fencing rather than academics, and you sons results do not bore out any significaant results, how do you justify the time spent on fencing to the lack of time spent on education? How does your district evaulate this?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by nahouw
If your son is at the age of 16 or later, and has not had these accomplishmnets, no coach will look at him for a scholarship. As a parent that homeshcools, if you have been focusing on fencing rather than academics, and you sons results do not bore out any significaant results, how do you justify the time spent on fencing to the lack of time spent on education? How does your district evaulate this?

Nahouw: are you a teacher/professional educator? You sure sound like one. Why do you automatically assume that a homeschooler's time spent on fencing is any more injurious to his studies than a public school student who plays football or swims or is on the debate team? When my wife swam AAU competitive swimming, she had to be in the water by 6am...go to class at 8 (where she slept through most of the morning classes), then 2+ hours of practice after school. No one questioned the drain on her fine public school education process.

If a kid isn't a national champion swimmer/debater/vollyballer by 16, is the endeavor no longer worth the time spent? Is that the only measure?

Seems like a pretty narrow, provincial view.

[corinna2u]

Sorry, your posting didn't have the effect you expected. It made me chuckle.

First, I am possibly the most practical, level-headed, common sense person you will ever know. So when you implied my head was in the clouds with my son's, that brought quite a chuckle.

Second, my son is 15, and taking COLLEGE courses. He will have completed his first year mathematics course possibly by the time we head for Nationals.

Third, you missed the line that said 'no one cautions him any more'. In fact the head of our club's last words were 'He's going to Sectionals isn't he? Make sure you don't miss the deadline!'

Fourth, by pursuing fencing for the next 4 years, it will keep him away from most of the common teen-age problems. Isn't America's biggest problem 'the lack of support for our youth'?

And what you didn't know was he also wants to be a chemist or a robotics engineer. He has the brains to be any of them. He made his first flashlight when he was 5.

[corinna2u]

For any in our district, pardon what I am about to say. For someone who wants to seriously compete, it sucks... Only about 3 people show for open fencing at our club. The coach will not give private lessons...considers them too much trouble. Our division is separated and surrounded by mountain ranges and we are dependent on the college students to make a tournament big enough to be worthwhile. Therefore, we only have tournaments in the spring (after snow melts off the passes) and in the fall (when the students come back from summer break).

But, on the positive side, every experienced person spends time explaining fencing techniques. This district is great for making a fencer feel welcome.

When Emily Cross was around 12, do you think she listened when someone told her that to dream big in fencing would be folly?

[pammie003]

I'm all for big dreams, in all areas of my life. I've always been a dreamer, and I don't see the harm in that, as long as you're willing to take the steps to reach those goals. Don't get me wrong, my feet are pretty firmly planted and my dreams aren't crazy. One was simply to make it to Europe, and here I am for the third time... Am I a logical dreamer? Is that possible?

I'd rather have given it everything I had, and risked not "making it" (as they say), then to look back and wish that I'd tried just that little bit harder or worked a little more...

I realize that this may someday set me up for dissapointment, but I'm young and I reserve the right to be an idealist while I still can be one!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by corinna2u
For any in our district, pardon what I am about to say. For someone who wants to seriously compete, it sucks... Only about 3 people show for open fencing at our club. The coach will not give private lessons...considers them too much trouble. Our division is separated and surrounded by mountain ranges and we are dependent on the college students to make a tournament big enough to be worthwhile. Therefore, we only have tournaments in the spring (after snow melts off the passes) and in the fall (when the students come back from summer break).

But, on the positive side, every experienced person spends time explaining fencing techniques. This district is great for making a fencer feel welcome.

When Emily Cross was around 12, do you think she listened when someone told her that to dream big in fencing would be folly?

If you think that your son has the ability to reach these goals, you may need to move to a more supportive club/division. He will NEED private lessons, and will certainly need more than three people to fence with on a routine basis. And, given the description of your division, I'm willing to guess that the caliber of those three fencers is somewhat below the necessary level as well.

you still never answered Nahouw. what division and section ARE you from?

-m

[corinna2u]

Actually, by definition, I did answer Nahouw...just forgot one point.

Division: Inland Empire Section: Northwest

We drive 8 hours round trip once a week to the Western Washington division for private lessons. (I actually have TWO budding fencers.) We stay for their intermediate junior fencing class. (The class has around 10 fencers. This also allows them to practice what they just learned in lessons.) Then we stay for open fencing; this club on average has about 15 to 20 that show.
(We arrive home about 1am.) Unlike alot of fencers, my son is on the strip the whole time. He knows he must maximize what he can get; any breaks means fencing one less fencer for the night.

I must make note of one of the positive things that comes from having a club or division without alot of fencers - you get plenty of time with the top fencers. For example, every open fencing at our club involves at least 15 to 30 minutes with the coach. The coach is able to notice bad habits from the start because he isn't involved with a lot of fencers. He is also able to see the really nice moves and immediately compliment.

None in our household are under any illusions about competition. We have very reasonable short term goals. The goal at their first Sectionals is to get their feet wet. They are NOT expecting to be in the top 30%. But they need to fence this caliber to advance.

The goal at Nationals is not to be last.

[electricepeeist]

I'm in the Philadelphia division, which is really strong. I have basically the same goals as Sarah, and am the same age, but have been fencing for 2.5 years and am not as impatient. (No offense meant there... there are too many people my age at my club who are much better than I am for me to think that I will get very far past them any time soon) It took me about a year to get anywhere in competitions. My results were mostly mixed at first- I finished 3rd in my first Division Novice Y-12 tournament, and this year qualified, in a very difficult group of competitors, for JOs, but then at Nationals finished 33rd out of 37th, and had a string of ok but not great finishes in local tourneys. But lately, after working harder and making more sacrifices to get to fence, I have placed first in qualifying events and finished in the top 30% at Junior Sectional Championships. I and another friend my age who has been fencing for the same amount of time have been improving at around the same rate, and we both have noticed that since even this past January we have improved greatly, and are now on a whole new level. So what I'm saying is that at first, it can be slow, but once you start understanding just what you are supposed to be doing with that piece of metal in your hand, you can improve so much in such a short amount of time and keep improving. I know I will. So keep on working, and I hope to see you in a national event soon, Sarah!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Actually, by definition, I did answer Nahouw...just forgot one point.

Division: Inland Empire Section: Northwest

We drive 8 hours round trip once a week to the Western Washington division for private lessons. (I actually have TWO budding fencers.) We stay for their intermediate junior fencing class. (The class has around 10 fencers. This also allows them to practice what they just learned in lessons.) Then we stay for open fencing; this club on average has about 15 to 20 that show.
(We arrive home about 1am.) Unlike alot of fencers, my son is on the strip the whole time. He knows he must maximize what he can get; any breaks means fencing one less fencer for the night.

I must make note of one of the positive things that comes from having a club or division without alot of fencers - you get plenty of time with the top fencers. For example, every open fencing at our club involves at least 15 to 30 minutes with the coach. The coach is able to notice bad habits from the start because he isn't involved with a lot of fencers. He is also able to see the really nice moves and immediately compliment.

None in our household are under any illusions about competition. We have very reasonable short term goals. The goal at their first Sectionals is to get their feet wet. They are NOT expecting to be in the top 30%. But they need to fence this caliber to advance.

The goal at Nationals is not to be last.

If these are his goals, then I don't understand why anybody was EVER cautioning him about them. Your prior post implied MUCH loftier goals, and I was simply pointing out that such goals aren't likely to be achieved in that situation, even in the Western Washington division. If your son DOES have lofty goals and you want to support them, I would encourage you to find a way to get to one of the stronger clubs. the closest for you is probably NWFC.

-m

[corinna2u]

Oh, he does have much loftier goals. His goal is to bring home some international medals in men's foil. (Olympics always stands out for the young ones because of the television coverage of American medaling athletes.) [Sectionals are at NWFC...that is one of the reasons we are attending...the coach that gives us our lessons said that Doug should get to NWFC for their open fencing. Just a little ahead of you EpeeMike81, but welcome the advice.]

What all these postings are about is everyone assumes I don't know the big picture.

The Little Picture: Fence against those that can kick your but. Evaluate. Improve.

The Big Picture: Do what it takes to find those that can kick your but. Evaluate. Improve.

Have I missed something?

Seriously, I am not offended by anyone's caution. But, I alone know my kid. I know his strengths and weaknesses.

I also know not to set him up for failure. We focus on improvement not winning (Don't be so surprised Nick Evangelista; a modern competitive sport fencer bent on improvement, how can that be? ) But if he improves something in his fencing every three days...that my friend is 100 plus items a year...hmmm...

Everyone on this board says "focus on IMPROVING not winning" but when a young one dreams of improving to the point of being successful...all you guys talk about are the chances of WINNING.
Kinda ironic.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Oh, he does have much loftier goals. His goal is to bring home some international medals in men's foil. (Olympics always stands out for the young ones because of the television coverage of American medaling athletes.) [Sectionals are at NWFC...that is one of the reasons we are attending...the coach that gives us our lessons said that Doug should get to NWFC for their open fencing. Just a little ahead of you EpeeMike81, but welcome the advice.]

What all these postings are about is everyone assumes I don't know the big picture.

The Little Picture: Fence against those that can kick your but. Evaluate. Improve.

The Big Picture: Do what it takes to find those that can kick your but. Evaluate. Improve.

Have I missed something?

Not sure. you may have missed something. is this coach suggesting that he should get to NWFC for LESSONS as well? that is one of the important things. for your son to have his best chance, he will need to get lessons with a proven international coach. one who has taken fencers to that level before. You should be going to NWFC as MEMBERS of the club and getting lessons there.

I only raise this because I know coaches are frequently unable to admit when they aren't the best choice for a particular student (i.e., the students goals would be best achieved with a different coach).

DISCLAIMER: I do not know and am not claiming to know this particular situation. I am speaking in generalities.

Seriously, I am not offended by anyone's caution. But, I alone know my kid. I know his strengths and weaknesses.

Exactly. I don't claim to know if it is possible for your son to achieve these goals. however, I do know that it will be MUCH more difficult for him if he is in Inland Empire or Western Washington, as opposed to down at NWFC. for ANY fencer, they will have a better shot at achieving the highest level when they are at a club of the highest level.

-m

[corinna2u]

Yes, actually, the coach that is giving the lessons has stressed to get lessons from NWFC; I believe in getting lessons from ANY coach that is known in the foil arena because each coach stresses different items.

Right now, Doug's rate of improvement is tremendous...that learning curve in action. He really likes the coach he is working with (always a good thing with a teen-ager). Therefore, I am inclined at this point not to go to NWFC for lessons.

Another reason, his current coaches do NOT stress winning, they stress improving. At the more competitive clubs, I have found they tend to put a bit more stress on winning. I want Douglas to have it ingrained that improving leads to winning. That takes time.

Right now, the plan is for getting lessons from NWFC after Nationals. 1. The coaches he has now have plenty to teach between now and then. 2. Douglas will have seen the best, and will appreciate harsher correction so that he will have a chance to move up in the ranks for the next Nationals. 3. The expense of Sectionals and Nationals will be behind us and we will be able to afford the higher expense of NWFC. 4. By then Douglas plans to have beaten the one year younger C rated lefty foilist from the club in the WWD. (He only needed one more point last week in open fencing!)

So do tell me, what do you think?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by corinna2u
Yes, actually, the coach that is giving the lessons has stressed to get lessons from NWFC; I believe in getting lessons from ANY coach that is known in the foil arena because each coach stresses different items.

Right now, Doug's rate of improvement is tremendous...that learning curve in action. He really likes the coach he is working with (always a good thing with a teen-ager). Therefore, I am inclined at this point not to go to NWFC for lessons.

Another reason, his current coaches do NOT stress winning, they stress improving. At the more competitive clubs, I have found they tend to put a bit more stress on winning. I want Douglas to have it ingrained that improving leads to winning. That takes time.

Right now, the plan is for getting lessons from NWFC after Nationals. 1. The coaches he has now have plenty to teach between now and then. 2. Douglas will have seen the best, and will appreciate harsher correction so that he will have a chance to move up in the ranks for the next Nationals. 3. The expense of Sectionals and Nationals will be behind us and we will be able to afford the higher expense of NWFC. 4. By then Douglas plans to have beaten the one year younger C rated lefty foilist from the club in the WWD. (He only needed one more point last week in open fencing!)

So do tell me, what do you think?

again, these are specifics. I'm NOT qualified to say one way or another whether your current coach is helpful, or whether your son should be going to NWFC now. I am glad to hear that he is the type of coach who recognizes that your son would be better off at NWFC, and who emphasizes what is best for the student. the issue is time. the more time you take before going to NWFC, the less time you have to work with AT NWFC (obviously). clearly, the few months between now and nationals is no big deal.

-m

[a517dogg]

danger corianna2 - just because you do well against someone in open fencing doesn't mean you have a shot against them in a tournement. Speaking personally, in open fencing I'm throwing everything that I am NOT confident at my opponent (usually), and in competition I will try to find one thing that works and then beat my opponent into the ground with that one thing. Fencers in open competition don't fence to win they fence to increase their vocabulary or repetiore. Therefore, how you do in open fencing really is only the smallest indication of how you will do against someone in a competition.

[corinna2u]

I agree.

"By then Douglas plans to have beaten the one year younger C rated lefty foilist from the club in the WWD. (He only needed one more point last week in open fencing!)"

These two boys have a tug-a-war going on. About the same age, both male lefty foilist...it is only natural. Two weeks ago, this C rated fencer easily kicked Doug's but. Not so, now.

All I meant is that male pride would be satisfied by beating this fencer before we changed to another club.