Fencing Noob Needs Info

[YoshotheGrand]

Hi all, i stumbled across this nice site the other day, after we took Fencing in P.E. class. Me and my friends were thinking of taking it up. The person who came in to teach us made us play foil. I have a friend who fences who swears by the epee, and the epee does look funner. I read that noobs should start on the foil to learn the basics first though. Should i do this? Also, do most clubs offer beginner programs? I got beaten pretty badly by my friends (all non-fencers, we were all first-timers), I definitely need instruction. Also, are there any good websites that offer good instruction? Thanks

[PisteOff]

I'd have to reccommend that you seek out a fencing club in your area for real instruction. I don't know of any clubs that dont offer beginner classes (that's how they get new members).

Traditionally, fencing students learn foil first. Most students start 'dry' (non-electric) fencing with foil because it is relatively inexpensive and does help build point control. Foil is also the most widely practiced weapon and you have a better chance of meeting other foilists.

I'm just now getting into epee after 2 years in the sport. As for epee being better than foil, I can't really take sides here. They're like my ex-girlfriends: they each have good and bad sides.

PisteOff

[wflaschka]

Good executive overview of fencing training.

The guy who wrote this site seems to have a good understanding of fencing. His observations imho sometimes rise to genius.

The website itself is not pretty. It's on geocities, so its traffic is metered and it conks out after too many visits. Hit it late at night.

The link again why not: http://www.geocities.com/fencinglessons/1.html

[fencingguy]

thats a great site, probably the best fencing description I've seen online, but it shut down within five minutes after I got there.

[Kling]

hmmm ye this site is great and in My opinion the most cooler weapon is Sabre.

Good Luck

[Mischa]

I'd go with foil first; learn the basics, then try epee or sabre.

[3ngu4rd]

I found this web site a while ago, and I kind of liked it. It hasn't been updated in quite sometime, but there were some interesting pointers. Click http://library.thinkquest.org/15340/home.html

Oh yes, in my opinion, starting with foil is the best idea (it helps with point control and movement so you're better prepared when you want to switch weapons!)

[CvilleFencer]

IMHO if you gain some skill with the foil than switching to epee is like shooting baskets with a tennis ball! You suddenly have so much more target area that you tend to excel for a short burst.

Case in point. One of the fencers at my club, lets call him Carl since that is his name, fences foil rabidly. He preaches the assets of foil like a Baptist Minister praises God and never touches the other weapons. That is until one day. His wife was fencing foil in an E-and under tourney so he was just kind of there when they had an epee tourney the same day! This is unusual for our division and several of us got to teasing him about giving it a try. He had his uniform in the car and borrowed a sword and... won! Earning his E in Epee in his first Tourney. He fought in his second epee tourney this weekend and earned his D. No lessons, no practice, does not even own his own epees, and got his D.

So, yes start out on foil, get great footwork, lightening reflexes, "within and inch" point control and then go fence epee. You should do well!

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Funner is not a word. Also, epee looks more fun but it isn't. Billiards is fun. Fencing is a martial art and sport, not a playtime activity. You must be willing to put in hours of practice, get bruises and callouses, and spend a lot of money to get good in fencing. If not, don't even start. NO WHINING BABIES allowed.

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

I too would agree to starting with foil. The reason is certainly more than just traditions. As for fencing material, I've found that books are more helpful than websites. It's good to gather as much info as you can, from a wide variety of styles. If you read books that talk about nothing but the "modern" style, you'll be missing out on crucial points of "classical" as well, and vice versa.

A live teacher is a must, however. There is a way to locate schools that are close to you through the USFA website, but I haven't been there in so long I don't remember the url. Good luck.

[YoshotheGrand]

thanks all, just out of curiosity, what is this "D" and "E" ratings? Is there a rating system in fencing like in online chess? (couldnt think of anything else that uses ratings ) If so, what is the highest and lowest ratings? thanx

[DHCJr]

Unrated is actually the lowest. Of the Rated A is the highest and E is the lowest that is conferred by the USFA. Also a two digit code is added to the letter, signafying when the rating was earned. For seeding purpose a A03 is considered higher than an A02. Also those with FIE points are consider higher than A's. It is different from the rating in chess because it does not involve lowering someone's rating if they loose to someone lower. The rating is based on their best not on anything cumulative. If you want more on how each rating is earned, check the USFA web site USFencing.org under Info for Members and then Forms and finally Athlete Handbook.

[whtouche]

Starting in foil is not necessarily the best way to go.
Altho I would say start with a right of way weapon first. But sabre is just as viable as foil to start in.
In response to cvillefencer, above, about carl's sudden success as an epee fencer after being a committed foil fencer...I doubt that he was specfically a foil fencer and now had all this extra target to poke at had much to do with his sucess.
I was a D in sabre when I earned my E, and almost my D in foil. And the target was smaller. And I wasnt used to point weapons, and Id never fenced foil before or trained it.
Likewise I fenced in a tournament in epee and came 2 places off of getting an E. Now I'm a C in sabre, E in foil, and still barely a U in epee. I never ever EVER train or fence anything other than sabre, but the transfer of skills is enough to overwhelm begginers, with my speed and footwork.
As such, it doesnt really matter what weapon your friend started out in. He didnt earn his E then D in epee because he was a devout foil fencer, he got his E and D in epee bnecause he first became a good FENCER(not foil fencer, that's incidental) then entered a tournament for begginers that just happened to be in another weapon.

Im sure I could have streamlined this post and made it less bulky and repetitive but I think I got the point across.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by whtouche
As such, it doesnt really matter what weapon your friend started out in. He didnt earn his E then D in epee because he was a devout foil fencer, he got his E and D in epee bnecause he first became a good FENCER(not foil fencer, that's incidental) then entered a tournament for begginers that just happened to be in another weapon.

Right... But his second Tourney was and open and he had to place higher than 2 C's and I believe a B to get his rank, and then lost to a C who I believe won his B in that one (I did not stay till the end).

I am not saying that a Saber fencer who was ranked high enough could not have done the same thing, but Carl has been fencing for not quite a year and now has his D in both weapons. I agree that it is mostly because he is a great fencer, but I think a saber fencer would have a harder time.

I am not saying that saber is horrible to start with or anything... but I will say it was horrible to start with for me. I started out fencing saber way back in Jr. High and I am still trying to put bad habits aside! I do not think it is the best weapon to start with because:
1. It is more expensive to start out.
2. It focus' on tempo more than Row (at least that is how it gets called in my neck of the woods)
3. The first time you whack someone if foil by reflex you run the risk of being carded.
4. The footwork does not translate well, what with no fleche and all.
5. Foil tends to teach a ligther touch, better point control (got to have for epee) and more patience IMHO.
6. Begginers doing bad saber can be painful if not outright dangerous. I have had blood drawn trying to teach nebies control in saber, and I cant see that happening with foil!

As to the extra target area being the difference, that is what the person in question credits. Not bashing on saber, just trying to clarify myself.

[Flunge]

Hate to sound like an old fogey, but get your foil mastered first. You shouldn't be throwing a curveball before a fastball, because the fastball emphasizes the basic motions of throwing.

Foil emphasizes the basic mindset of fencing. The phrasing you have to master in foil (attack/riposte/counterriposte) is behind all the variations in the other weapons. Even when you deviate and break tempo, its because of your understanding of the sequence that it works.

I fenced epee only for 9 years, then worked on foil and had to relearn many of my habits the right way.

I just called epee and sabre fencers curveballs. Is that an insult or compliment?

[nahouw]

Originally posted by wflaschka
Good executive overview of fencing training.

The guy who wrote this site seems to have a good understanding of fencing. His observations imho sometimes rise to genius.

The website itself is not pretty. It's on geocities, so its traffic is metered and it conks out after too many visits. Hit it late at night.

The link again why not: http://www.geocities.com/fencinglessons/1.html

This was a great site explaining fencing -- I think I will add a link to his site in our FAQ for new fencers.

[corps a corps]

In our club we have all the beginners go through three levels of instruction in foil before they go to another weapon. That way they really learn the basics of fencing, terminology, and the customs and traditions of fencing.

[Muso440]

I am a complete newbie too so I have been following this thread and looked at the Fencing Lessons website (http://www.geocities.com/fencinglessons/1.html) But although this is quite helpful in some areas, it has provoked *loads* of questions in others! These might seem astonishingly basic questions for some of you out there, but does anyone want to help me out on these?

* What’s ‘in preparation?’ e.g. lesson 5: “If you retreat in reaction to preparation, then it isn't preparation, it is an attack” Or in lesson 7, he mentions an ‘attack-into-preparation’ – what does *that* mean??
*What’s point-in-line? This isn’t explained too well.
*What does derobed mean?
* There’s lots of talk about going ‘to the eight’ or ‘to the six’ etc which seems to be not about parrying but about aiming there. Where are all those areas – anyone know a website with a picture?

(Maybe I should just go and have some more lessons...)

[jeff]

"Preparation" , roughly, is what a fencer does while setting up the attack, for example, searching for the blade, feinting, etc. I don't agree with the comment on that page that a retreat by one fencer turns the other guy's preparation into an attack (if you search for my blade while advancing, and I deceive the attampt while retreating to maintain distance, you haven't made an attack). However, it's fair advice to take, since many directors will act that way anyway. This is called "directing by looking at the feet" (which is not a compliment.)

Attack into preparation means making an attack while the other guy is setting up his. If Fencer A searches for the blade and doesn't get it, or feints and then stops, or just steps forward without making a threat, you can attack into that preparation.

Point-in-line works like this: you are in fencing distance (within advance lunge range) and you extend your arm with point aimed at target. If your opponent lunges onto it (starting his attack after you've established your line) and you both touch, then it should be called for you since you established the threat and he impaled himself on your blade. Key idea is who creates the threat first, not who moved feet.

Derobe is an attempt to take the blade that failed because the other fencer deceived it by disengaging around the attempted taking. Related is trompement, which is an attempted taking that fails because it wasn't properly executed.

For pictures of the parries, go to lesson 3 and position the mouse over the picture of the fencer - that will illustrate the motion.

The Fencing Lessons site is quite nice (even though I don't agree with all the analysis, and it could use a little spell checking). The illustration of parries in lessons 3 and 4 is very clever.

[Muso440]

Thanks Jeff! That's really helpful. It's kind of starting to make sense now (slowly)....