National Collegiate Club Fencing Championships Results

[oiuyt]

1ST NATIONAL CLUB COLLEGIATE FENCING CHAMPIONSHIPS (APRIL 5TH – 6TH, 2003) at the UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA

TEAMS PARTICIPATING:
University of Michigan
University of Texas
University of Maryland
Michigan State University
Texas A & M University
University of Massachusetts
Purdue University
University of South Carolina
University of New Hampshire
University of Wisconsin
Clemson University
United States Military Academy
Northwestern University
Virginia Tech University
Smith College
University of Florida
University of Virginia
Wesleyan College

OVERALL WINNERS, MEN:
Northwestern University/University of Massachusetts (Co-Champions, 95 wins each)
United States Military Academy – Army (3rd Place, 89 wins)
University of Florida (4th Place, 88 wins)

OVERALL WINNERS, WOMEN:
University of Florida (71 wins)
University of Massachusetts – 2nd Place (69 wins)
University of New Hampshire – 3rd Place (68 wins)

WEAPONS WINNERS (# of wins):

WOMEN’S FOIL
University of New Hampshire (33)
University of Florida (30)
University of Virginia (27)

WOMEN’S SABER
Smith College (31)
USMA – Army (30)
University of Michigan (21)

WOMEN’S EPEE
University of Massachusetts (24)
University of Florida (23)
University of New Hampshire (18)

MEN’S FOIL
University of Massachusetts (37)
Clemson University (32)
University of Florida (31)
USMA – Army (31)

MEN’S EPEE
Northwestern University (36)
University of Massachusetts (30)
USMA – Army (30)
University of Florida (29)

MEN’S SABER
Northwestern University (31)
University of Florida (28)
USMA – Army (28)
University of Massachusetts (28)

Overall 6-Weapon Standings:
1) UMass 164
2) Florida 159
3) Army 150
4) Texas 118
5) UNH 115
6) MSU 107
7) Purdue 99
8) Clemson 97
9) Northwestern 95
10) Virginia Tech 94
11) Texas A&M 70
12) Virginia 69
13) Smith 66
14) Maryland 66
15) Wisconsin 59
16) South Carolina 35
17) Wesleyan 23
18) Michigan 21

Enjoy.
-B :)
*who is very pleased with his team*

[damianip]

As I stated on RSF:

There goes Brad, subtly blowing his own horn.

That's quite an accomplishment, coach!!!! So when are you going to join NCAA Div. I?

Congrats, Brad, to you and the entire UMass team!!!!

Paolo

[oiuyt]

I would've posted regardless of how UMass did.

Varsity status is not likely to be in the near-term cards for us. Last year UMass cut 7 of 28 varsity programs (something about the economy being bad and funding getting cut...). At least some of those programs would likely be first in line for newly added sports. Not that it isn't something we're still hoping for in the future, but unless the state suddenly starts generating tons more revenue.....

That said, pretty much what being club prevents us from doing is IFAs, NCAA regionals, and NCAA nationals. The majority of our dual meets this year (27 of 45) were against varsity programs. The other major benefits of varsity status are in funding and resources from the school. Compared to most club teams we're well supported, which is nice.

-B :)

[qatet]

So why weren't the individuals held?

[oiuyt]

Time issues.

Several of the schools had booked flights as early as 4:30 from Jacksonville (1 1/2 hours from Gainesville). This left very little time on Sunday to finish. There were some major issues with an inexperienced bout committtee and how scores were (or as the case might be, weren't) recorded. Straightening the results out took long enough that there was barely enough time to announce results before the early schools all needed to leave. Individual finalists were announced but there wasn't time to fence the individual pools.

Next year a couple of changes will fix this issue. First, the competition results will be run on a computer. Second, the second day will actually be a second DAY rather than a half day (planning to end fencing at 1pm is.... not helpful).

-B :)

[qatet]

That kinda sucks. But next year... there's always next year. And more of the schools are closer to NE, no? Or am I just biased?

Woulda been nice to see how far that pretty sabre squad of mine could have gone!

[KBayDog]

What was the median cost of sending a team to UF this year?

If possible, I would like to find out the cost difference between the flying teams (UNH, UMass, etc.) and the - presumably - driving teams, like USC, Clemson, etc.

[oiuyt]

Airfare was easily the priciest bit off going (shocking I know). For flying 28 people (26 fencers, 2 coaches) it cost us a hair over $6k. Tack on $900 for van rentals, $1000 for hotel, and the $300 entry fee and it's a bit over $8k. Personally I think this makes the debate over whether the entry fee should be $300 or $500 more than a bit stupid. The extra $200 gets swollowed up in things like getting a better deal on hotels or flights (we saved ~$6-700 compared to using the official hotel).

One thing to note about the Northeast is not only that it had a decent number of teams this year (as did the midwest and the midatlantic), but that there are a TON of clubs here that didn't go this past year. We're likely to see a significantly larger tournament this coming year. Hopefully having gone when it was in this area, some of them will continue to attend in future years when planning and expenses become an issue again. I think that we're likely to pick up a few permanent attendees that way also.

So people from schools that went.... Opinions? What did you like? What would you improve? Is your school planning on doing it again next year? Why or why not? Obviously there were more than a few problems with the bout committee organization and score recording *cough*understatement-of-the-year*cough*. That issue will disappear next year, we have people already experienced in running this format tournament on computers who will be used. The New England Championships is a 12-school competition with the same format and runs smoothly. Other than that issue what would you like to see improved?

People from schools that DIDN'T go..... Why not? Had you heard of it? Was it too expensive? Are you planning to go this coming year? What would make the difference and allow/get your team to attend?

Answers to questions like those above are really important to making the tournament better. Feel free to post here, PM me, or email me at brad@sandboxscribe.com with your opinions. Thanks.

-B :)

[R. Exnicios]

I coach the club at Tulane University and I thought I would put my 2 cents in. Tulane did not attend the event but we did travel to 9 tournaments out of town and compete in a total of 20 tournaments (NACs etc)

I don't know about other schools but I know at Tulane the students pay the entry fees and the school covers SOME of the travel costs. So when the students sit down and decide what tournaments they will travel the things they look are:
1-location (how long of a drive and is it a fun place)
2-entry fee
3-date
4-who will be able to fence (we have 30 people foil compared to 3 fencing saber)

We passed on the tournament this year mainly because it conflicted with out division qualifiers but the entry fee would have also entered into if not for the conflict.

I am glad to see that the turn out was so good.

Maybe we can make it next year.

Cheers

[darius]

Brad,

We opted to sit this one out due to the fact that U of Rochester is in something of a "building" phase. We have a lot of freshmen who are starting to look pretty good and get their feet wet in competition.

Our Men's Foil and Epee would have been relatively competitive, but without a full three-weapon squad, it seemed like an overly large expense to go to Florida for an unproven competition.

We're encouraged by the fact that it will be in New England next year, and judging by progress and pre-frosh recruiting, I see no reason we won't field a group next year.

A question for ya - I'm not familiar with the format; how does it work? Is it still possible to field partial teams? (For example, if I only have two sabre fencers...)

darius

[oiuyt]

Partial teams are allowed.

The format has 3 fencers per squad. The school ranks their fencers A, B, and C (basically 1, 2, 3, no relation to USFA ratings). Each school fences each other school. When school X fences school Y there are 18 bouts, 3 per squad. The A fencer in each weapon fences the A fencer from the other school, the B the B, and the C the C. Obviously in the case of single gender teams there are 9 bouts (generally we would pair up 2 single gender teams of opposite genders to minimize the sitting, eg Smith (women) and Wisconsin (men) rotated together this year, Smith fencing the women of the current opponent and Wisconsin the men). If you have only, say, 2 MS fencers, you would rank them A, B, and would just have an open C slot. It's not encouraged but there were a few schools that didn't have any fencers in a weapon (ie school Z had 5 squads but no WS).

I think there were at least several schools that were on the fence about coming and decided to wait out the first year just to make sure that the competition would be worth going to. It's always hard to tell with something that hasn't been done before. I think the answer is a resounding yes, it's worth doing.

R. Exnicios- $300 for 18 fencers is under $17/person. What large tournaments do you have that are cheaper? The entry fee shouldn't be the issue. Flying to whereever the event is held, yes, I can see that as factoring into the decision, but the entry fee was rediculously low.

For UMass, the team covered the cost of the trip but the teammembers are fundraising to cover the costs incurred. We're hopeful that by the end of the semester that the entire cost of the trip will have been paid off by this extra fundraising and that the addition of the trip will not adversely affect our overall budget at all. Yes this means a lot of extra work for our fencers this year. Incidently, if people have good ideas that have worked for their team or other group, please let me know. Some of the things that we have done this year included:
A bakesale (actually worked surprisingly well)
Homemade soap (so-so results)
Selling magazines (disappointing, mostly due to lackluster effort by the majority of the team that doesn't feel comfortable doing direct sales)
Reffing at local and HS fencing meets (worked well during the HS season)
Stuffing envelopes (one of the better fundraisers, members of our team got together for an evening and did this as a group as contract work)
Selling donated artwork (not so effective)
Randomly asking people for money (fairly effective, frequently this took the form of attempting to sell something (magazines, etc.) and having the person say "well, I don't want xxx that you're selling, but here's the cost of it as a donation")
A Pizza Hut night (still waiting on the check for this to see how effective it was, my feeling is not very)
And this weekend UMass and Smith are co-sponsoring a tournament to raise money for the trips to FL that we each took. We have over 200 entries and are working both on expanding that and selling banner space on the scoring tables. This is very likely to bring in more money than anything else on the list above. If anyone is near the Northeast this Saturday and is interested in a really good tournament, let me know.
I'm sure there's more that I'm just neglecting currently. We basically just told people to come up with ideas, grab a couple of team mates and implement them.

Please, keep the feedback coming. It will definately help us plan for next year's event. Darius- I'm glad to hear that your team is likely to come next year, as information is developed I'll make sure that it gets posted here.

-B :)

[R. Exnicios]

Not to start a thread on a small point.

My point wasn't that $300 is too high. $300 or $400 is fine if you are sending 18 fencers. It's the cost of sending one or two teams (3-6 fencers). The total trip cost divided by 3-9 as opposed to the 15-30 fencers we send to "open" events.

Tulane's club is a student club and when the 50-60 fencers decide where to spend the money, they spend it where the most kids can participate. We get almost $0 money from the school and we have to teach 30-40 beginners every year if we want to survive.

We are, after all, a "beer and pretzels club" and have been around (in one capacity or another) for over 100 years and I don't think any two years are the same.

All that being said. The tournament is a great idea and I hope it gains strength and popularity. Fencing needs all the exposure we can get.

Cheers,

Richard Exniocios
Coach, Tulane University Fencing

[oiuyt]

Ah yes. Clearly with partial teams the per person cost goes up.

I still see looking at the entry fees as at best a second order consideration. The other costs are significantly higher, especially if flying is required. Granted the other costs are all proportionate to the number of people competing (if 12 people need to fly it's half the cost of 24 people flying).

With 6 people the cost is slightly below that of a NAC. I agree, this is a minor issue.

Obviously I can't do much about the cost of flights, is there something other than travel costs that would affect your team's decision to go?

Other teams want to weigh in?

-B :)

[darius]

I think a little flexibility in the pricing would be nice -- either by weapon team ($50 per) or at the least, by gender ($150 per). You could raise that price a little, just to make it advantageous to field more fencers.

In our case, we wouldn't have enough depth today to field anything but three squads (MF, ME, WF).

Rochester's a pretty small school, and our knowledge base, while strong in foil and epee, is nearly nonexistent in sabre. Not surprisingly, we've got approximately 1.5 sabreurs.

I have a feeling that many clubs are fairly similar in that regard -- notice that most of the teams at this years' championships are from fairly large schools?

Of course, an individual event would go a long way to make many of these musings irrelevant!

darius

[Shpaga]

Brad,

Congrats on your successful championship!!

Hope things go well for your team.

DSK

[swordsen]

Hmmm I know the club I coach at was planning on going (Georgia Southern University) but that was b efore I got activated by the Guard and sent to Kuwait where I am currently cooling my heels. I am not sure why then didn't go. This year would have been best because I doubtr we will have the funds to go up to the NE next year. Oh well. Lost chances.

[earlie]

I tell you, Wiskonsin supprised us all, Wiskonsin supprised us all, Univ. of Waushington could not never match them for a team.
Wiskonsin go-go-go- Girls and a Boys Ha!!

[Gibo]

William and Mary would have loved to go. We tied with USMA during the season, so hopefully we'd have done as well and been right up in the top five or so like Army. Unfortunately, the combination of timing and money did it in. The trip to Florida would have cost about as much as all the rest of the traveling we did for the year, and the school would have been unlikely to help out. Few of us had time for any kind of fundraising activity. Beyond that, if we didn't make it back by Monday, we'd be missing class and some people had exams.

The other sticking point was there was a USFA tournament at W&M that weekend. It's a lot easier to get up at 8:30 and go to a tournament than drive 20 hours to one. When you look at the results for W&M fencers (two top 8 foil, 3 top 8 epee, including the winner, 2 top 8 sabre including the winner) it was probably a decent idea to stay.


With all that said, the team would still be interested in the idea next year if a more central location can be arranged. USFA tournaments can always be moved around on the schedule. I'd say overall cost was the major problem, and if the tournament was within driving range next year it could be done.

[oiuyt]

Next year is scheduled for UNH. The year after somewhere in Michigan (MSU probably), then Texas the next year. After that either back to the Southeast or a Mid-Atlantic site.

-B :)