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  1. #1
    Siobhs
    Guest

    Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    Last results from the Junior Worlds, which finished today (13 April).

    Team results (only one bronze medal is awarded after a third place play-off):

    Women's Epee
    1. CHN Chine
    2. RUS Russie
    3. GER Allemagne

    Men's Epee
    1. FRA France
    2. RUS Russie
    3. POL Pologne

    Women's Foil
    1. ITA Italie
    2. RUS Russie
    3. USA Etats-Unis

    Men's Foil
    1. ITA Italie
    2. RUS Russie
    3. GER Allemagne

    Women's Sabre
    1. RUS Russie
    2. ITA Italie
    3. HUN Hongrie

    Men's Sabre
    1. KOR Corée du Sud
    2. USA Etats-Unis
    3. POL Pologne


    Final championship medal table (Junior only):
    1. RUS 3 4 4
    2. ITA 3 3 1
    3. CHN 3 2 0
    4. USA 1 1 2
    5. KOR 1 1 0
    6. FRA 1 0 2
    7. UKR 0 1 0
    8. POL 0 0 3
    8. GER 0 0 3
    9. HUN 0 0 2
    10. SUI 0 0 1

    Top-ten nations by points (Junior only):
    1. RUS 382
    2. ITA 337
    3. CHN 317
    4. USA 249
    5. FRA 226
    6. HUN 196
    7. POL 193
    8. KOR 185
    9. GER 184
    10. UKR 99

    Full results and standings at www.escrime.com or www.escrimetrapani2003.it

  2. #2
    Dirk Goldgar
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    "Siobhs" <siobhansilke@ireland.com> wrote in message
    news:581d81fe.0304131508.3b241fab@posting.google.c om...
    > Last results from the Junior Worlds, which finished today (13

    April).

    Thanks for posting all this, Siobhan.

    --

    Dirk Goldgar

    (to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)




  3. #3
    Dirk Goldgar
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    "Siobhs" <siobhansilke@ireland.com> wrote in message
    news:581d81fe.0304131508.3b241fab@posting.google.c om...
    > Last results from the Junior Worlds, which finished today (13

    April).

    Thanks for posting all this, Siobhan.

    --

    Dirk Goldgar

    (to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)




  4. #4
    Siobhs
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    "Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message news:<GAnma.18$r64.9009249@news.netcarrier.net>...
    > "Siobhs" <siobhansilke@ireland.com> wrote in message
    > news:581d81fe.0304131508.3b241fab@posting.google.c om...
    > > Last results from the Junior Worlds, which finished today (13

    > April).
    >
    > Thanks for posting all this, Siobhan.



    My pleasure Dirk.

    Surprised there hasn't been much comment on the championships... what
    do rsf readers think of the results?

    Siobhán

  5. #5
    Winter Trail
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    I was dissapointed the womens sabre team had to meet china first round they
    fenced. I heard that the team was really down about it the night before, which
    didn't help.

    For the most part though, I think all the members to did a great job. This
    must be the most medals the US has had in a long time.

  6. #6
    Steve Khinoy
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    The results of this year's Junior/Cadets are extraordinary. I remember when
    the US had zero, or very rare, international results -- a strong contender
    every ten years or so. I hope that we won't get into the mentality that we
    are "entitled" to medals.

    And thanks again to Siobhan!

    --Steve Khinoy

    "Siobhs" <siobhansilke@ireland.com> wrote in message
    news:581d81fe.0304180020.101642c@posting.google.co m...
    > "Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message

    news:<GAnma.18$r64.9009249@news.netcarrier.net>...
    > > "Siobhs" <siobhansilke@ireland.com> wrote in message
    > > news:581d81fe.0304131508.3b241fab@posting.google.c om...
    > > > Last results from the Junior Worlds, which finished today (13

    > > April).
    > >
    > > Thanks for posting all this, Siobhan.

    >
    >
    > My pleasure Dirk.
    >
    > Surprised there hasn't been much comment on the championships... what
    > do rsf readers think of the results?
    >
    > Siobhán




  7. #7
    Siobhs
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    wintertrail@aol.com (Winter Trail) wrote in message news:<20030418144325.18986.00000148@mb-m19.aol.com>...
    > I was dissapointed the womens sabre team had to meet china first round they
    > fenced. I heard that the team was really down about it the night before, which
    > didn't help.
    >



    I was surprised too that two such strong teams would meet so early on,
    but China had a relatively low seeding because only two fencers took
    part in the individual competition at junior level. Their third team
    member was a cadet, and they had no sub.

    The team seeding is calculated with a very simple formula that's based
    on the results of the individual competition: 1 point for first place,
    2 points for second and so on. Only the results of the three highest
    finishers in the team are added, and then the team with the lowest
    total is ranked first. Because there were 60 competitors in the
    individual junior women's sabre, China's third fencer, Huang Jialing,
    was awarded 61 points.

    You can see how the seedings for all team events were calculated by
    going to this page <http://fechten.de/deu/modules.php?na...howpage&pid=43>
    and selecting the PDF version of the results.

    Siobhán

  8. #8
    Siobhs
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    siobhansilke@ireland.com (Siobhs) wrote in message news:<581d81fe.0304190529.4407efdb@posting.google. com>...

    > You can see how the seedings for all team events were calculated by
    > going to this page <http://fechten.de/deu/modules.php?na...howpage&pid=43>
    > and selecting the PDF version of the results.



    I should also say that there's a full bout-by-bout breakdown of each
    match in those PDFs. Very interesting to look at, next best thing to
    seeing the match live!

    Siobhán

  9. #9
    Fencerbill
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    In article <581d81fe.0304190844.414bbda4@posting.google.com >,
    siobhansilke@ireland.com (Siobhs) writes:

    >
    >I should also say that there's a full bout-by-bout breakdown of each
    >match in those PDFs. Very interesting to look at, next best thing to
    >seeing the match live!


    Thank you very much for the reference to the full team match results, it has
    been fascinating. You are right, next best thing to being there.

    Siobhan, please E-mail me.

    Bill Hall

  10. #10
    Carol
    Guest

    Re: Junior Team World Championships RESULTS

    I guess that the FIE thinks that this is the fastest/easiest way that they
    can seed the teams -- but it unfairly seeds a team like China who don't
    have one of the team members in the Junior competition, only in the Cadet,
    which gets penalized by the burden of excess points. I see why they do
    this -- it is not like in the Seniors where you go by the team world
    rankings, however, someone should consider using the points awarded on the
    FIE ranking list for the individual event to seed the teams -- add up the
    points earned in the competition, and if a person didn't earn points
    because they weren't even IN the competition, nothing gets added, nobody
    gets penalized, and highest points is highest seed.

    I just quickly did that (it wouldn't take anymore time than what they do
    currently, plus, they have several days to accomplish the seeding anyway),
    and came up with this seeding:

    1.USA 108
    2.ITA 76
    3.HUN 60
    4.RUS 48
    5.POL 44
    6.KAZ 44
    7.CHN 36
    8.FRA 16
    9.KOR 24
    10.GBR 20
    11.JPN 20
    12.GER 16
    13.ESP 12
    14.CAN 8
    15.UKR 8

    In this manner, you give credit for each round the person went out in, and
    better reflect a team's strength.

    I think that the Senior World Championships were always seeded by
    individual results in the individual competition prior to the institution
    of the team world cup rankings so that is why they do it this way.
    However, there is so much more variability in the Junior ranks, and by
    seeding on FIE points awarded for the individual event, it gives a better
    seeding.

    Even on our division level, we can seed based on finish in the individual
    event if the team competition follows it, or, if it is only a team event,
    we seed based upon classification of the fencers. The seeding based on
    classification is always the better seeding -- almost always by seeding
    this way, the final results are the same as the seeding.

    Surely, if you are a good team, no matter what your seeding is, you will
    progress -- the system doesn't disadvantage you; however, a bad seeding
    disadvantages the higher seeded team because they wind up meeting a team in
    an earlier round than what is expected to happen.

    Not to bring up the entire importance of seeding a competition properly
    debate (well, OK, perhaps we can bring it up again -- traffic has been low
    <g>) this does bring up the importance of seeding -- we see a difference
    in how they seeded the Junior Worlds team competition, and how it would be
    different if they went by the points awarded instead of placement, and the
    impact to the US team.

    In tennis, there are differences in the seeding amongst the Big 4 -- The
    Australian Open, US Open and French Open all follow the rankings for
    seeding (as all the minor and satellite competitions do). Wimbledon makes
    their adjustments. The difference comes in that the French is clay and
    Wimbledon is grass. Most of the minor and satellite competitions on these
    surfaces attract the players profficient on these surfaces, so the seeding
    by ranking works; of course, for the Big 4, all players are attracted, and
    must adjust their game to the surface.

    For the French Open, there are 2 camps of thought on this -- some people
    think that the French Open is exciting entirely because there are so many
    upsets; others think that when they seed, that they should take into
    account the competitors record on clay and also use that to determine
    seeding in order to have a more balanced and competitive competition --
    that is what would make it more exciting.

    For Wimbledon, they use the rankings to create the initial draw, and then
    they look at the draw and see what part of the draw that major competitors
    would meet. If they feel that 2 competitors strong in grass meet to soon
    in the draw, they change the seeding position of the lower competitor up or
    down 1 notch -- just swapping spots -- i.e. does it really matter if you
    are seeded 26 or 27? -- no not really, but if we swap you, you have the
    potential to meet so-and-so in the 8, but if we don't swap you, we have a
    match that occurs in the 32 that should be occuring until the 8. I also
    believe that they also do these swaps for protection of nationality -- in
    fencing, we only protect nationalities in the pools and not the DEs.

    Maybe after this example of the US team, the FIE will make a change for
    seeding in Junior World team competitions.

    Harold Buck wrote:

    > Personally, I think such scoring is asinine *unless* they fence off for
    > all places. Think about it: if I finish first, I had to beat the
    > second-best fencer at the competition to gain that last point (1 point
    > for first versus 2 for second).
    >
    > Meanwhile, someone in an relatively easy pool who went out in the round
    > of 32 could move up 6 places--and do 6 points better--because he or she
    > had an indicator that was a touch or two better than some other people.
    >
    > If you fence off for all places, then such a scoring system is fine.



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