3 questions

Hello,

I have 3 questions:

1. What is the difference between FIE saber blades and a non FIE
blades?
2. What is the difference between all the blades? (what is Super
blade? ,what is Bluestar blade? ect`).
3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
(foil, epée, and saber)).
In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber – but that was
at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore
..
Can I use the old signaling unit?
Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?

Best Regards,

Ram Freedman

ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...

> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:

I have one answer, if you want to call it that...

> 2. What is the difference between all the blades? (what is Super
> blade? ,what is Bluestar blade? ect`).

In many cases, the color is simply baked into the blade with an
electric heating process. Each company has several brand names for
the blades they provide, but in reality there are very few actual
forges making fencing blades--and often those forges will stamp a
blade with the seller's mark (it is my understanding that Blade does
this, but I may be mistaken).

Uhlmman sells blades in a range of colors, including a rainbow-colored
blade. I have used a Super Blue blade (which was not particularly
blue) and found it heavy, slow and stiff. I don't know if the
character of the blade is consistent with color and I somehow doubt
that it is.

Your best bet: call your supplier and ask. So few people actually do
this. Triplette is one of the few companies that actually knows where
their blades come from, and they should--they GO there and meet the
people who make the blades and operate the forge. The Uhlmann rep
(the ones in Germany) are also quite knowlegable about their blades.

TC

--

ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...

> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:

I have one answer, if you want to call it that...

> 2. What is the difference between all the blades? (what is Super
> blade? ,what is Bluestar blade? ect`).

In many cases, the color is simply baked into the blade with an
electric heating process. Each company has several brand names for
the blades they provide, but in reality there are very few actual
forges making fencing blades--and often those forges will stamp a
blade with the seller's mark (it is my understanding that Blade does
this, but I may be mistaken).

Uhlmman sells blades in a range of colors, including a rainbow-colored
blade. I have used a Super Blue blade (which was not particularly
blue) and found it heavy, slow and stiff. I don't know if the
character of the blade is consistent with color and I somehow doubt
that it is.

Your best bet: call your supplier and ask. So few people actually do
this. Triplette is one of the few companies that actually knows where
their blades come from, and they should--they GO there and meet the
people who make the blades and operate the forge. The Uhlmann rep
(the ones in Germany) are also quite knowlegable about their blades.

TC

--

ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...
> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:
>
> 1. What is the difference between FIE saber blades and a non FIE
> blades?

The type of steel used. FIE blades use maragin steel which is
stronger than the type which is used for non-FIE blades.

> 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> (foil, epée, and saber)).
> In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber ? but that was
> at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore
> .
> Can I use the old signaling unit?
> Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?

I think you will have to send it away to be fixed. Even if you can
get it working, which I doubt, I think you'll find that there are
other rules that have changed.

Bye,

Joe

ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...
> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:
>
> 1. What is the difference between FIE saber blades and a non FIE
> blades?

The type of steel used. FIE blades use maragin steel which is
stronger than the type which is used for non-FIE blades.

> 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> (foil, epée, and saber)).
> In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber ? but that was
> at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore
> .
> Can I use the old signaling unit?
> Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?

I think you will have to send it away to be fixed. Even if you can
get it working, which I doubt, I think you'll find that there are
other rules that have changed.

Bye,

Joe

jhaig@maths.man.ac.uk (Joseph Haig) wrote in message news:<169dff8c.0304070754.12599209@posting.google. com>...
> ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...

> > 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> > (foil, epée, and saber)).
> > In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber ? but that was
> > at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> > As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore;
> > Can I use the old signaling unit?
> > Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?

I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
today. In fact, I'll stand by that, since the sole purpose of using
the capteur/sensor/accelerometer was to turn the blade on and off--the
blade had to be live during the touch.

If you're lucky, you have a "bargain" machine with only the most basic
sabre circuit, in which case you're golden. However,depending on
brand and circuitry, it's possible your machine checks for a "dead"
sensor (one that is always live) which (back in the day) could be
anything from a sign of manifest fraud to simply a damaged sensor.

(Someone feel free to correct me on this, please!)

Simplest test: plug in a couple of modern sabres and go at it!

Nota Bene: if you have old-style sensor-equipped sabres, just short
the socket, et voila! A new, ready-to use, modern sabre!

Cheers,

TC

--

jhaig@maths.man.ac.uk (Joseph Haig) wrote in message news:<169dff8c.0304070754.12599209@posting.google. com>...
> ramf@netvision.net.il (Ram Freedman) wrote in message news:<83b3c695.0304070113.6c610d0c@posting.google. com>...

> > 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> > (foil, epée, and saber)).
> > In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber ? but that was
> > at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> > As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore;
> > Can I use the old signaling unit?
> > Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?

I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
today. In fact, I'll stand by that, since the sole purpose of using
the capteur/sensor/accelerometer was to turn the blade on and off--the
blade had to be live during the touch.

If you're lucky, you have a "bargain" machine with only the most basic
sabre circuit, in which case you're golden. However,depending on
brand and circuitry, it's possible your machine checks for a "dead"
sensor (one that is always live) which (back in the day) could be
anything from a sign of manifest fraud to simply a damaged sensor.

(Someone feel free to correct me on this, please!)

Simplest test: plug in a couple of modern sabres and go at it!

Nota Bene: if you have old-style sensor-equipped sabres, just short
the socket, et voila! A new, ready-to use, modern sabre!

Cheers,

TC

--

1. There's technically no such thing as an "FIE" sabre blade, since the FIE has
no homologation
requirements for sabre blades. Vendors will frequently use the term to mean a
sabre blade
made of maraging steel, as is typically used for FIE homolgated foil and epee
blades. Maraging
is a type of high-nickel content steel which is stronger and much less
susceptible to
fatiguing/microfractures than ordinary carbon steel. For foil and epee this
results is blades
that are resistant to breakage and have a much longer lifespan-- anyone fencing
foil or epee
extensively really should use FIE blades, as the greater durability will more
than make up for
the higher purchase price. Sabre blades are subject to different stresses than
foil or epee blades, and
general consensus seems to be that maraging steel doesn't provide the same sort
of benefits as it does
with foil & epee blades to justify the extra cost.

2. Manufacturers produce a range of blade with different weight, balance,
stiffness, and tempering
characteristics. The frequently give each model of blade a different colored
finish so that they can be
readily told apart. What a given finish color means in terms of the blade
characteristics varies between
manufacturers. Keep in mind that many blades are "badge engineered" by
equipment vendors-- Blaise
Freres and Lammet blades, for example, are sold under a variety of brand names
by different vendors.

3. There is an upgrade firmware chip available for older Allstar machines which
will bring them up to
current specs for sabre-- it's a socketed IC, so once you have it you just need
to open up the box
and swap out the old firmware chip for the new one. The last time I checked,
they cost about $95--
you can call around to vendors and see who will give you the best price.

-Dave

Ram Freedman wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:
>
> 1. What is the difference between FIE saber blades and a non FIE
> blades?
> 2. What is the difference between all the blades? (what is Super
> blade? ,what is Bluestar blade? ect`).
> 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> (foil, epée, and saber)).
> In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber – but that was
> at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore
> .
> Can I use the old signaling unit?
> Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ram Freedman

1. There's technically no such thing as an "FIE" sabre blade, since the FIE has
no homologation
requirements for sabre blades. Vendors will frequently use the term to mean a
sabre blade
made of maraging steel, as is typically used for FIE homolgated foil and epee
blades. Maraging
is a type of high-nickel content steel which is stronger and much less
susceptible to
fatiguing/microfractures than ordinary carbon steel. For foil and epee this
results is blades
that are resistant to breakage and have a much longer lifespan-- anyone fencing
foil or epee
extensively really should use FIE blades, as the greater durability will more
than make up for
the higher purchase price. Sabre blades are subject to different stresses than
foil or epee blades, and
general consensus seems to be that maraging steel doesn't provide the same sort
of benefits as it does
with foil & epee blades to justify the extra cost.

2. Manufacturers produce a range of blade with different weight, balance,
stiffness, and tempering
characteristics. The frequently give each model of blade a different colored
finish so that they can be
readily told apart. What a given finish color means in terms of the blade
characteristics varies between
manufacturers. Keep in mind that many blades are "badge engineered" by
equipment vendors-- Blaise
Freres and Lammet blades, for example, are sold under a variety of brand names
by different vendors.

3. There is an upgrade firmware chip available for older Allstar machines which
will bring them up to
current specs for sabre-- it's a socketed IC, so once you have it you just need
to open up the box
and swap out the old firmware chip for the new one. The last time I checked,
they cost about $95--
you can call around to vendors and see who will give you the best price.

-Dave

Ram Freedman wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have 3 questions:
>
> 1. What is the difference between FIE saber blades and a non FIE
> blades?
> 2. What is the difference between all the blades? (what is Super
> blade? ,what is Bluestar blade? ect`).
> 3. I have an old 3 weapon box (allstar universal signaling unit 'Club'
> (foil, epée, and saber)).
> In the past I used it for all 3 weapons including Saber – but that was
> at the time that electric saber was working with sensors.
> As you probably know we don't use electric Sabers with sensors anymore
> .
> Can I use the old signaling unit?
> Is there any way to use it with the new Saber system?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ram Freedman

On 10 Apr 2003 08:46:45 -0700, tcate@zoo.uvm.edu (Thom Cate) wrote:

> I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
> shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
> today.

No, I don't know of any old machines that worked with a shorted
sensor. There were some models which would work if you used a sabre
without a sensor (i.e. with the circuit open, not shorted); you just
had to ignore the white lights that were on all the time. The Allstar
club boxes, however, did not work this way. They required the sensor.

-Mark-

On 10 Apr 2003 08:46:45 -0700, tcate@zoo.uvm.edu (Thom Cate) wrote:

> I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
> shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
> today.

No, I don't know of any old machines that worked with a shorted
sensor. There were some models which would work if you used a sabre
without a sensor (i.e. with the circuit open, not shorted); you just
had to ignore the white lights that were on all the time. The Allstar
club boxes, however, did not work this way. They required the sensor.

-Mark-

In article <4c1bba3.0304100746.133d5a70@posting.google.com> , tcate@zoo.uvm.edu
(Thom Cate) writes:

>
>I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
>shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
>today. In fact, I'll stand by that, since the sole purpose of using
>the capteur/sensor/accelerometer was to turn the blade on and off--the
>blade had to be live during the touch.
>

I recall differently. You did need the completed, closed, circuit. But then you
had to get a transient "open" from the sensor to activate the valid touch. But
the sensors were in practice impossible to keep calibrated.

I was reminded of this recently when someone complained that their SG-31 had
stopped working on Sabre. When I checked it I finally out that it had been
reprogrammed back to Sabre-with-sensor mode.

The failure to have reliable consistent sensors is what caused the change to
the current system we have now, which only requires contact, not impact.

In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall Epee
fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.

Bill Hall

In article <4c1bba3.0304100746.133d5a70@posting.google.com> , tcate@zoo.uvm.edu
(Thom Cate) writes:

>
>I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
>shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
>today. In fact, I'll stand by that, since the sole purpose of using
>the capteur/sensor/accelerometer was to turn the blade on and off--the
>blade had to be live during the touch.
>

I recall differently. You did need the completed, closed, circuit. But then you
had to get a transient "open" from the sensor to activate the valid touch. But
the sensors were in practice impossible to keep calibrated.

I was reminded of this recently when someone complained that their SG-31 had
stopped working on Sabre. When I checked it I finally out that it had been
reprogrammed back to Sabre-with-sensor mode.

The failure to have reliable consistent sensors is what caused the change to
the current system we have now, which only requires contact, not impact.

In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall Epee
fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.

Bill Hall

fencerbill@aol.com (Fencerbill) wrote in message news:<20030411000719.12142.00000060@mb-fr.aol.com>...
> In article <4c1bba3.0304100746.133d5a70@posting.google.com> , tcate@zoo.uvm.edu
> (Thom Cate) writes:
>
> >
>
> In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
> reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall Epee
> fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.
>
> Bill Hall

I resemble that remark. So Bill, are you saying there's something
wrong with that?

I started fencing when the capteurs were in use but started sabre
after they were gone. Would a stop cut not be enough acceleration to
trigger the capteur? Seems like the tag-and-run tactic should still
have been a valid option even with capteurs.

-B

fencerbill@aol.com (Fencerbill) wrote in message news:<20030411000719.12142.00000060@mb-fr.aol.com>...
> In article <4c1bba3.0304100746.133d5a70@posting.google.com> , tcate@zoo.uvm.edu
> (Thom Cate) writes:
>
> >
>
> In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
> reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall Epee
> fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.
>
> Bill Hall

I resemble that remark. So Bill, are you saying there's something
wrong with that?

I started fencing when the capteurs were in use but started sabre
after they were gone. Would a stop cut not be enough acceleration to
trigger the capteur? Seems like the tag-and-run tactic should still
have been a valid option even with capteurs.

-B

In article <a928c17.0304111019.e59385a@posting.google.com>,
brad@sandboxscribe.com (Brad Baker) writes:

>> In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
>> reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall
>Epee
>> fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.
>>
>> Bill Hall
>
>I resemble that remark. So Bill, are you saying there's something
>wrong with that?
>
>I started fencing when the capteurs were in use but started sabre
>after they were gone. Would a stop cut not be enough acceleration to
>trigger the capteur? Seems like the tag-and-run tactic should still
>have been a valid option even with capteurs.
>

Except that the capteurs that they had would have broken your heart. A proper
stop CUT would have registered. But an awful lot of these touches seen nowadays
would not.

And I do agree, you do resemble that remark.

Congratulations on the UMass, UNH, Smith results at the National Collegiate
Club Fencing Championships. I knew New England wide fencing was tough.

Bill Hall

In article <a928c17.0304111019.e59385a@posting.google.com>,
brad@sandboxscribe.com (Brad Baker) writes:

>> In general, the present system is reasonable. But the old system would not
>> reward the current crop of tap-them-on-the-wrist-and-jump-backwards tall
>Epee
>> fencers who are infesting our Sabre strips.
>>
>> Bill Hall
>
>I resemble that remark. So Bill, are you saying there's something
>wrong with that?
>
>I started fencing when the capteurs were in use but started sabre
>after they were gone. Would a stop cut not be enough acceleration to
>trigger the capteur? Seems like the tag-and-run tactic should still
>have been a valid option even with capteurs.
>

Except that the capteurs that they had would have broken your heart. A proper
stop CUT would have registered. But an awful lot of these touches seen nowadays
would not.

And I do agree, you do resemble that remark.

Congratulations on the UMass, UNH, Smith results at the National Collegiate
Club Fencing Championships. I knew New England wide fencing was tough.

Bill Hall

In article <3e961fe6.1892756@news.verizon.net>, Mark C. Orton
<ortonmc+rsf@erols.com> writes
>On 10 Apr 2003 08:46:45 -0700, tcate@zoo.uvm.edu (Thom Cate) wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
>> shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
>> today.
>
>No, I don't know of any old machines that worked with a shorted
>sensor. There were some models which would work if you used a sabre
>without a sensor (i.e. with the circuit open, not shorted); you just
>had to ignore the white lights that were on all the time. The Allstar
>club boxes, however, did not work this way. They required the sensor.
>

We have two club-model Leon Paul boxes from around 1990. They won't
work unaltered with a modern sabre, but if you disconnect the middle pin
from each ground lead then they do work. The timing is almost certainly
wrong, but it doesn't seem to be enough to worry the club's sabreurs!

--
Tim S.

In article <3e961fe6.1892756@news.verizon.net>, Mark C. Orton
<ortonmc+rsf@erols.com> writes
>On 10 Apr 2003 08:46:45 -0700, tcate@zoo.uvm.edu (Thom Cate) wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall that the old sabre circuit still worked with a
>> shorted capteur--i.e. a full-time "live" blade, just as they are
>> today.
>
>No, I don't know of any old machines that worked with a shorted
>sensor. There were some models which would work if you used a sabre
>without a sensor (i.e. with the circuit open, not shorted); you just
>had to ignore the white lights that were on all the time. The Allstar
>club boxes, however, did not work this way. They required the sensor.
>

We have two club-model Leon Paul boxes from around 1990. They won't
work unaltered with a modern sabre, but if you disconnect the middle pin
from each ground lead then they do work. The timing is almost certainly
wrong, but it doesn't seem to be enough to worry the club's sabreurs!

--
Tim S.