Jumper's Knee and fencing

[Gavin Davenport]

pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
diagnose it as anything at all.

I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick for
a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty seven
now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left kneecap,
feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there is a
lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).

Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot of
time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.

cheers

Gav

[Peter Harrison]

Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon between
that bump and the patella?

"Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> diagnose it as anything at all.
>
> I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick
for
> a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty seven
> now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
kneecap,
> feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there is
a
> lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
>
> Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot of
> time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
>
> cheers
>
> Gav
>
>

[Peter Harrison]

Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon between
that bump and the patella?

"Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> diagnose it as anything at all.
>
> I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick
for
> a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty seven
> now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
kneecap,
> feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there is
a
> lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
>
> Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot of
> time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
>
> cheers
>
> Gav
>
>

[Gavin Davenport]

the tendon itself and the whole area within the kind of soft gap (for want
of a better word) in a half circle between the kneecap and my shin. its now
got to the stage where any normal movement - walking around etc. causes
slight discomfort.

If I have an evening with lots of heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more eppee
or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.

"Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b6f0d0$f91$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon
between
> that bump and the patella?
>
> "Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
> message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> > pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> > diagnose it as anything at all.
> >
> > I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick
> for
> > a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty
seven
> > now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
> kneecap,
> > feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> > noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there
is
> a
> > lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot
of
> > time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Gav
> >
> >
>
>

[Gavin Davenport]

the tendon itself and the whole area within the kind of soft gap (for want
of a better word) in a half circle between the kneecap and my shin. its now
got to the stage where any normal movement - walking around etc. causes
slight discomfort.

If I have an evening with lots of heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more eppee
or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.

"Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b6f0d0$f91$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon
between
> that bump and the patella?
>
> "Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
> message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> > pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> > diagnose it as anything at all.
> >
> > I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick
> for
> > a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty
seven
> > now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
> kneecap,
> > feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> > noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there
is
> a
> > lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot
of
> > time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Gav
> >
> >
>
>

[Fencerbill]

In article <3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>, "Gavin Davenport"
<gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> writes:

> heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more eppee
>or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.

That is a dastardly canard that Sabre fencers don't lunge. Although we do, more
or less, try not to fleche.

Bill Hall

[Fencerbill]

In article <3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>, "Gavin Davenport"
<gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> writes:

> heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more eppee
>or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.

That is a dastardly canard that Sabre fencers don't lunge. Although we do, more
or less, try not to fleche.

Bill Hall

[Rowan Smith]

I've had ahost of my own problems with one of my knees recently. All I can
really suggest is to rest it and perhaps try some light weights to strengthen
it.

Gavin Davenport wrote:

> pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> diagnose it as anything at all.
>
> I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick for
> a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty seven
> now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left kneecap,
> feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there is a
> lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
>
> Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot of
> time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
>
> cheers
>
> Gav

[Rowan Smith]

I've had ahost of my own problems with one of my knees recently. All I can
really suggest is to rest it and perhaps try some light weights to strengthen
it.

Gavin Davenport wrote:

> pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> diagnose it as anything at all.
>
> I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a stick for
> a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty seven
> now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left kneecap,
> feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there, there is a
> lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
>
> Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a lot of
> time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
>
> cheers
>
> Gav

[Gavin Davenport]

"Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030402135716.04054.00000038@mb-fj.aol.com...
> In article <3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>, "Gavin
Davenport"
> <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> writes:
>
> > heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more epee
> >or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.
>
> That is a dastardly canard that Sabre fencers don't lunge. Although we do,
more
> or less, try not to fleche.
>
> Bill Hall

ah, I did say "Lots of..."

I lunge quite a lot I think for a sabreur and get a good number of points
that way (saber was my main weapon for 8 years) but I'd still say that I
lunge more in foil or epee, and when I started sabre, I fleched all the
time, rule changes...pah

[Gavin Davenport]

"Fencerbill" <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030402135716.04054.00000038@mb-fj.aol.com...
> In article <3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>, "Gavin
Davenport"
> <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> writes:
>
> > heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more epee
> >or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.
>
> That is a dastardly canard that Sabre fencers don't lunge. Although we do,
more
> or less, try not to fleche.
>
> Bill Hall

ah, I did say "Lots of..."

I lunge quite a lot I think for a sabreur and get a good number of points
that way (saber was my main weapon for 8 years) but I'd still say that I
lunge more in foil or epee, and when I started sabre, I fleched all the
time, rule changes...pah

[Peter Harrison]

I have never seen that before. Perhaps someone else could jump in.

On general principles, you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it much,
since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I suspect the
patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee all the way, so the
stretching is on the quad muscles.

A knee wrap might help with a bit of compression.

"Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
message news:3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk. ..
> the tendon itself and the whole area within the kind of soft gap (for want
> of a better word) in a half circle between the kneecap and my shin. its
now
> got to the stage where any normal movement - walking around etc. causes
> slight discomfort.
>
> If I have an evening with lots of heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more
eppee
> or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.
>
> "Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b6f0d0$f91$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon
> between
> > that bump and the patella?
> >
> > "Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
> > message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> > > pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> > > diagnose it as anything at all.
> > >
> > > I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a
stick
> > for
> > > a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty
> seven
> > > now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
> > kneecap,
> > > feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> > > noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there,
there
> is
> > a
> > > lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a
lot
> of
> > > time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > Gav
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Peter Harrison]

I have never seen that before. Perhaps someone else could jump in.

On general principles, you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it much,
since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I suspect the
patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee all the way, so the
stretching is on the quad muscles.

A knee wrap might help with a bit of compression.

"Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
message news:3e8b0d44$0$12322$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk. ..
> the tendon itself and the whole area within the kind of soft gap (for want
> of a better word) in a half circle between the kneecap and my shin. its
now
> got to the stage where any normal movement - walking around etc. causes
> slight discomfort.
>
> If I have an evening with lots of heavy lunging or fleches (i.e. more
eppee
> or foil than saber) then it is noticably worse.
>
> "Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b6f0d0$f91$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Is the painful area the bony bump below the knee cap, or the tendon
> between
> > that bump and the patella?
> >
> > "Gavin Davenport" <gavindavenport@nospam.particle-systems.com> wrote in
> > message news:3e8af7dc$0$6124$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk.. .
> > > pretty sure I have patellar tendinopathy, though my GP is refusing to
> > > diagnose it as anything at all.
> > >
> > > I displaced my left patella when I was seventeen and walked with a
stick
> > for
> > > a while. Since getting more seriously back into fencing (I'm twenty
> seven
> > > now) I've had more and more pain from the patch just below my left
> > kneecap,
> > > feeling like bruising and stiffness, definitely worse with impact, but
> > > noticably bad after fencing although there's little impact there,
there
> is
> > a
> > > lot of stretching (Im right handed, fencing all three weapons).
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience or advice? I'm not keen on taking a
lot
> of
> > > time out from fencing, but I also don't want to exascerbate it.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > Gav
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Bryan J. Maloney]

"Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:b6i5ao$b7u$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com:

> I have never seen that before. Perhaps someone else could jump in.
>
> On general principles, you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
> anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
> strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it
> much, since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I
> suspect the patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee
> all the way, so the stretching is on the quad muscles.

And check with a pro. The above is all good advice, but never forget
professional help (sport med/sport physiology). If nothing else, "watch
it and take it easy" from a pro may cost you money for what sounds like
simple good sense, but a good set of diagnostics also rule out cryptic
serious conditions. A good diagnosis from a professional right now is
cheaper than synthetic knees later.

[Bryan J. Maloney]

"Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:b6i5ao$b7u$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com:

> I have never seen that before. Perhaps someone else could jump in.
>
> On general principles, you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
> anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
> strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it
> much, since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I
> suspect the patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee
> all the way, so the stretching is on the quad muscles.

And check with a pro. The above is all good advice, but never forget
professional help (sport med/sport physiology). If nothing else, "watch
it and take it easy" from a pro may cost you money for what sounds like
simple good sense, but a good set of diagnostics also rule out cryptic
serious conditions. A good diagnosis from a professional right now is
cheaper than synthetic knees later.

[Gavin Davenport]

"Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.net.spam.must.die.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9352DAA3451A3dogfaceinsightbbcom@206.141.1 93.32...
> "Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:b6i5ao$b7u$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com:
>
you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
> > anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
> > strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it
> > much, since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I
> > suspect the patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee
> > all the way, so the stretching is on the quad muscles.
>
> And check with a pro. The above is all good advice, but never forget
> professional help (sport med/sport physiology). If nothing else, "watch
> it and take it easy" from a pro may cost you money for what sounds like
> simple good sense, but a good set of diagnostics also rule out cryptic
> serious conditions. A good diagnosis from a professional right now is
> cheaper than synthetic knees later.

cheers everyone, got two weeks forced time-out due to other commitments and
a physio appointment next tuesday.

[Gavin Davenport]

"Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.net.spam.must.die.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9352DAA3451A3dogfaceinsightbbcom@206.141.1 93.32...
> "Peter Harrison" <pbharriso@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:b6i5ao$b7u$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com:
>
you should rest it, ice it post exercise, take
> > anti-inflammatories like naproxen or ibuprofen, and do stretching and
> > strengthening exercises. It will probably be tough to stretch it
> > much, since the travel for the muscle|+ tendon is pretty large, plus I
> > suspect the patella gets locked into position when you bend the knee
> > all the way, so the stretching is on the quad muscles.
>
> And check with a pro. The above is all good advice, but never forget
> professional help (sport med/sport physiology). If nothing else, "watch
> it and take it easy" from a pro may cost you money for what sounds like
> simple good sense, but a good set of diagnostics also rule out cryptic
> serious conditions. A good diagnosis from a professional right now is
> cheaper than synthetic knees later.

cheers everyone, got two weeks forced time-out due to other commitments and
a physio appointment next tuesday.

[Simno Young]

As a GP with patellar tendinopathy(!)I suggest avoiding high loads
through the knee(probably your lunges),Ice the tendon twice a
day(15-20 mins),and as sonn as you are able,start strenghtening the
tendon with drop squats(start with 6x15 reps,no weight,both legs,no
further than 45 degrees,stop if pain severe,carry on if not,start slow
for one week,then faster the next.
It will take a long time to settle(weeks),especially if you don't let
it settle now.
It's worth seeing a physio for,possibly,ultrasound and friction
massage and to examine you for anatomical abnormalities which may be
predisposing you to this.
Simno

[Simno Young]

As a GP with patellar tendinopathy(!)I suggest avoiding high loads
through the knee(probably your lunges),Ice the tendon twice a
day(15-20 mins),and as sonn as you are able,start strenghtening the
tendon with drop squats(start with 6x15 reps,no weight,both legs,no
further than 45 degrees,stop if pain severe,carry on if not,start slow
for one week,then faster the next.
It will take a long time to settle(weeks),especially if you don't let
it settle now.
It's worth seeing a physio for,possibly,ultrasound and friction
massage and to examine you for anatomical abnormalities which may be
predisposing you to this.
Simno

[Jose E. Cavazos, MD PhD]

Gav,
I had a couple of knee surgeries (torn ACL) and had had patellar tendonitis,
and I am also a physician (neurologist). I agree with most of the thread.
1) Sports Medicine MD consultation is the single most important piece. Rule
out other problems. Correct dx is critical
2) Physical therapy is needed. Get a program and stick to it for at least a
year.
3) Strengthening of Quads, and in particular, repetitions to strengthen the
inner quad (the last 15 degrees of knee extension) are quite important. The
outer quad pulls the knee cap up and to the outer side, the inner pulls it
up and toward the inner side. Most people when they recover, they emphasize
lifting heavy weights with the biggest muscle (the outer) neglecting
completing knee extension to 0 degrees.
Exercises:
10-15 repetitions max weight from 90 to 0
20-30 repetitions medium weight from 20 to 0
Half-Squads and up
Squads with ball between legs.
4) Decreasing inflammation: (Consult with your own physician for any
medication including those below)
a) icying after fencing or other exercise for at least a couple of hours.
b) NSAIDs (ibuprofen, etc.). I am a big fan of intermittent high dose COX-2
inh. (rofecoxib - Vioxx 50mg qd x 2 days/week, when I fence)
c) Chondroitin/Glucosamine supplementation at least once a day

Jose