Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil

[Raka]

Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
soon).

My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
a french grip also.

Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
competition?

Thanks,

-Raka

[John Twernbold]

Raka wrote:
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation?

If you're working on developing finger control (rather than the
"clenched fist of death"), you could do this with either style of grip;
it simply requires a bit of mental concentration on using the desired
technique. In fact, I'd think it would be more beneficial to stay with a
pistol grip if that's what you ulimately want to use, since you'll avoid
the difficult process of transferring techniques learned on the french
grip to the pistol grip, and not sliding back into old bad habits.

It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

As always, I'm no expert / your mileage may vary / consult your coach.


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[John Twernbold]

Raka wrote:
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation?

If you're working on developing finger control (rather than the
"clenched fist of death"), you could do this with either style of grip;
it simply requires a bit of mental concentration on using the desired
technique. In fact, I'd think it would be more beneficial to stay with a
pistol grip if that's what you ulimately want to use, since you'll avoid
the difficult process of transferring techniques learned on the french
grip to the pistol grip, and not sliding back into old bad habits.

It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

As always, I'm no expert / your mileage may vary / consult your coach.


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Raka" <storage_space@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.c om...
> Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably
too
> soon).
>
> My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips
as
> a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training
with
> a french grip also.
>
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from
pistol
> grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> competition?

If you're having problems with holding your pistol grips too tightly,
having you work with a french grip for a while seems a completely
reasonable approach to me. You would still need to explicitly remind
youself, when switching back from french to pistol, that you must hold
more lightly, more like a french. You might want to try a variety of
different handles -- and different sizes of handles -- to find one
that encourages you to hold it properly. I find the russian handle to
be the most "french-like" of the common pistol grips.

For that matter, I don't agree that it would be "suicide" to compete
with a french grip. Plenty of epee fencers do it, and though I assume
you're a foilist, it's still possible to fence foil competitively with
a french handle. With the french, actions in which you attempt to
control your opponent's weapon must be more precise and correctly
executed. And it's rather easier to have the weapon knocked out of
your hand by your opponent's forceful beat. However, my experience
has been that such beats rarely result in a touch for the opponent. I
don't know of any actions that can be done with either a french or a
pistol grip that can't be done with the other type of handle. Some
are easier with a pistol, some with a french, but they can be done
either way.

I use a pistol grip in competition and a french for teaching. I used
a french for competition for the first six years I fenced. Then a
hand injury left me unable to hold on to a french handle for about a
year, so I switched to a pistol so that I could continue fencing. I
never saw any special need to go back, but it's not because I don't
think it could be done.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Raka" <storage_space@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.c om...
> Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably
too
> soon).
>
> My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips
as
> a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training
with
> a french grip also.
>
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from
pistol
> grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> competition?

If you're having problems with holding your pistol grips too tightly,
having you work with a french grip for a while seems a completely
reasonable approach to me. You would still need to explicitly remind
youself, when switching back from french to pistol, that you must hold
more lightly, more like a french. You might want to try a variety of
different handles -- and different sizes of handles -- to find one
that encourages you to hold it properly. I find the russian handle to
be the most "french-like" of the common pistol grips.

For that matter, I don't agree that it would be "suicide" to compete
with a french grip. Plenty of epee fencers do it, and though I assume
you're a foilist, it's still possible to fence foil competitively with
a french handle. With the french, actions in which you attempt to
control your opponent's weapon must be more precise and correctly
executed. And it's rather easier to have the weapon knocked out of
your hand by your opponent's forceful beat. However, my experience
has been that such beats rarely result in a touch for the opponent. I
don't know of any actions that can be done with either a french or a
pistol grip that can't be done with the other type of handle. Some
are easier with a pistol, some with a french, but they can be done
either way.

I use a pistol grip in competition and a french for teaching. I used
a french for competition for the first six years I fenced. Then a
hand injury left me unable to hold on to a french handle for about a
year, so I switched to a pistol so that I could continue fencing. I
never saw any special need to go back, but it's not because I don't
think it could be done.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Lion]

The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
competition.

The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick to
the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.

Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance and
timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

[Lion]

The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
competition.

The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick to
the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.

Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance and
timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <Xns932B6A2FA7Djtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
>English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
>language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
>transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
>you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
>desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
>to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
>develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English skills
taking German...

[CLHagenMN]

In article <Xns932B6A2FA7Djtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
>English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
>language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
>transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
>you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
>desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
>to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
>develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English skills
taking German...

[CLHagenMN]

In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:

>Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
>From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
>Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
>
>Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
>easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
>soon).

I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
(It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
can't say most...
I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.

>My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
>a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
>suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
>lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
>a french grip also.

There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
to be smaller, and presumably timed better.

>Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
>french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
>grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
>competition?

Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:

>Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
>From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
>Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
>
>Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
>easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
>soon).

I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
(It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
can't say most...
I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.

>My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
>a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
>suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
>lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
>a french grip also.

There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
to be smaller, and presumably timed better.

>Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
>french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
>grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
>competition?

Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

[Janus]

Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[Janus]

Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[Phillip Inoy]

It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I don't
know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
was anyways.

With the italian grip your fingers are enclosed in those metal rings
and you're using your finger tips along the ricasso to manouvre the
point and the strap makes it difficult if not impossible to propell it
forward and use the pommel, a la the french grip where one can change
from holding at the bell guard to pommel and back again at ease.


Phillip J. Inoy

clhagenmn@aol.com (CLHagenMN) wrote in message news:<20030224225436.19274.00000511@mb-fd.aol.com>...
> In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
> storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:
>
> >Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
> >From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
> >Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
> >
> >Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> >easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
> >soon).
>
> I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
> The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
> (It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
> Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
> can't say most...
> I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
> fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
> and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
> DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.
>
> >My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
> >a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> >suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> >lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
> >a french grip also.
>
> There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
> to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
> orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
> to be smaller, and presumably timed better.
>
> >Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> >french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
> >grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> >competition?
>
> Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
> there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
> french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
> it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
> his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
> finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

[Phillip Inoy]

It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I don't
know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
was anyways.

With the italian grip your fingers are enclosed in those metal rings
and you're using your finger tips along the ricasso to manouvre the
point and the strap makes it difficult if not impossible to propell it
forward and use the pommel, a la the french grip where one can change
from holding at the bell guard to pommel and back again at ease.


Phillip J. Inoy

clhagenmn@aol.com (CLHagenMN) wrote in message news:<20030224225436.19274.00000511@mb-fd.aol.com>...
> In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
> storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:
>
> >Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
> >From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
> >Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
> >
> >Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> >easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
> >soon).
>
> I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
> The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
> (It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
> Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
> can't say most...
> I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
> fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
> and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
> DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.
>
> >My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
> >a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> >suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> >lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
> >a french grip also.
>
> There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
> to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
> orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
> to be smaller, and presumably timed better.
>
> >Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> >french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
> >grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> >competition?
>
> Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
> there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
> french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
> it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
> his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
> finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
don't
> know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> was anyways.

The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
don't
> know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> was anyways.

The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Harold Buck]

In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

But what if you're past your prime?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Harold Buck]

In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

But what if you're past your prime?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:02:32 GMT
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote:
>In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>But what if you're past your prime?
>

All the masters appear to agree that you move from there into second.

Second position, second childhood....


Zebee