Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:02:32 GMT
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote:
>In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>But what if you're past your prime?
>

All the masters appear to agree that you move from there into second.

Second position, second childhood....


Zebee

[David Neevel]

I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
of prime.

-Dave

Janus wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[David Neevel]

I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
of prime.

-Dave

Janus wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[gary hayenga]

Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.

*You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip

gary hayenga


David Neevel wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
> Janus wrote:
>
>
>>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>

[gary hayenga]

Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.

*You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip

gary hayenga


David Neevel wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
> Janus wrote:
>
>
>>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>

[David Neevel]

Actually, I gave up on those shortly after you moved to Ann Arbor. I'm
using medium Uhlmann visconti grips, cut off a bit up front, so that the body
of the grip is forward in the fingers and the upper prong is also shifted a
bit forward from the base of the thumb. That and the cant of the tang
mean that there's plenty of latitude to shift the grip around. It also helps
to 'release' the grip a bit more forward in the hand, so that just the last
knuckles of the fingers are around the body of the grip, and the end of the
thumb is
either shifted back away from the guard pad, or else lifted off the grip
entirely,
with the knuckle of the thumb lightly hooked over the upper prong acting as
your
upper manipulator. There are other, more pronouced shifts of the grip in the
hand
you can carry out that simply can't be done with a French grip.
It's this ability to do a partial release and use finger surfaces other
than the classic thumb-and-forefinger to control that makes me find the
visconti much
better for prime-- it allows me to get all manner of angles on both the parry
and
the riposte (quite nice for dealing with rightys who think that by continuing
to charge
in after they're parried they can avoid the riposte).

-Dave

gary hayenga wrote:

> Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
> at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.
>
> *You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
> curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
> grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip
>
> gary hayenga
>
> David Neevel wrote:
> > I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> > decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> > more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> > greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> > get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> > manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> > don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> > restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> > I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> > prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> > of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> > of prime.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> > Janus wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
> >
> >

[David Neevel]

Actually, I gave up on those shortly after you moved to Ann Arbor. I'm
using medium Uhlmann visconti grips, cut off a bit up front, so that the body
of the grip is forward in the fingers and the upper prong is also shifted a
bit forward from the base of the thumb. That and the cant of the tang
mean that there's plenty of latitude to shift the grip around. It also helps
to 'release' the grip a bit more forward in the hand, so that just the last
knuckles of the fingers are around the body of the grip, and the end of the
thumb is
either shifted back away from the guard pad, or else lifted off the grip
entirely,
with the knuckle of the thumb lightly hooked over the upper prong acting as
your
upper manipulator. There are other, more pronouced shifts of the grip in the
hand
you can carry out that simply can't be done with a French grip.
It's this ability to do a partial release and use finger surfaces other
than the classic thumb-and-forefinger to control that makes me find the
visconti much
better for prime-- it allows me to get all manner of angles on both the parry
and
the riposte (quite nice for dealing with rightys who think that by continuing
to charge
in after they're parried they can avoid the riposte).

-Dave

gary hayenga wrote:

> Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
> at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.
>
> *You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
> curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
> grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip
>
> gary hayenga
>
> David Neevel wrote:
> > I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> > decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> > more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> > greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> > get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> > manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> > don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> > restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> > I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> > prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> > of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> > of prime.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> > Janus wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
> >
> >

[Phillip Inoy]

"Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message news:<4VK6a.1589$PS5.549087304@news.netcarrier.net >...
> "Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> > It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> > comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
> don't
> > know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> > was anyways.
>
> The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
> Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
> in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
> of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

Thanks so much...you have consistently been a help to those in need of
info or who are misinformed. i'm off to buy a couple of italian
grips!!!

Thanks.

Phillip J. Inoy

[Phillip Inoy]

"Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message news:<4VK6a.1589$PS5.549087304@news.netcarrier.net >...
> "Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> > It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> > comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
> don't
> > know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> > was anyways.
>
> The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
> Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
> in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
> of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

Thanks so much...you have consistently been a help to those in need of
info or who are misinformed. i'm off to buy a couple of italian
grips!!!

Thanks.

Phillip J. Inoy

[John Twernbold]

CLHagenMN wrote:
> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
> skills taking German...

Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[John Twernbold]

CLHagenMN wrote:
> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
> skills taking German...

Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Lion" <apaul@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.0302241016.3bf4f7ec@posting.google.c om...
> The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
> flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
> judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
> competition.
>
> The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
> distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
> their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
> that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
> landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick
to
> the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
> hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.
>
> Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance
and
> timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

It's no great trick to flick with the French handle, though you do it
slightly differently. I agree that it's easier to make a "big flick"
with a pistol grip, but I don't think the type of handle makes much
difference to one's ability to do the "semi-flick" you describe. I'd
guess that move has probably been around as long as foil fencing, it's
so natural.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Lion" <apaul@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.0302241016.3bf4f7ec@posting.google.c om...
> The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
> flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
> judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
> competition.
>
> The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
> distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
> their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
> that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
> landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick
to
> the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
> hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.
>
> Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance
and
> timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

It's no great trick to flick with the French handle, though you do it
slightly differently. I agree that it's easier to make a "big flick"
with a pistol grip, but I don't think the type of handle makes much
difference to one's ability to do the "semi-flick" you describe. I'd
guess that move has probably been around as long as foil fencing, it's
so natural.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Janus" <laeticus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com...
> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
flèching fencer.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[Dirk Goldgar]

"Janus" <laeticus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com...
> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
flèching fencer.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

[CLHagenMN]

In article <%357a.1594$Qx6.551579787@news.netcarrier.net>, "Dirk Goldgar"
<dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> writes:

>
>As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
>flèching fencer.

Again, simple enough with an orthotic handle, if using an open-handed 'grip',
and appropriate hand postion.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <%357a.1594$Qx6.551579787@news.netcarrier.net>, "Dirk Goldgar"
<dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> writes:

>
>As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
>flèching fencer.

Again, simple enough with an orthotic handle, if using an open-handed 'grip',
and appropriate hand postion.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <Xns932E4461336CDjtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>
>CLHagenMN wrote:
>> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
>> skills taking German...
>
>Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
>is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
>your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
>instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
>additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
>English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
>of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
>may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
>slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
>language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
>remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)

Sorry, but you are incorrect, sir!

(While I DID continue to take 'English' all through high school - i.e. three
additional years -, over half of it focused on literature, not grammar,
composition, and writing.)

Whe I started studying German, I already had 6 years of english, and thought I
knew enough about it, and found the study and practice of grammar and writing
(for its own sake) a super-big bore! Only because I was interested in German,
(and getting A's in it) was I forced to go back to the rules and concepts of
english grammar, and really learn the fine points of it, to support my
understanding of German grammar, and language, and learn a translation
process.

If I had studied english grammar for a whole additional year, I would have
done some significant damage to my grade point average.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <Xns932E4461336CDjtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>
>CLHagenMN wrote:
>> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
>> skills taking German...
>
>Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
>is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
>your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
>instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
>additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
>English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
>of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
>may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
>slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
>language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
>remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)

Sorry, but you are incorrect, sir!

(While I DID continue to take 'English' all through high school - i.e. three
additional years -, over half of it focused on literature, not grammar,
composition, and writing.)

Whe I started studying German, I already had 6 years of english, and thought I
knew enough about it, and found the study and practice of grammar and writing
(for its own sake) a super-big bore! Only because I was interested in German,
(and getting A's in it) was I forced to go back to the rules and concepts of
english grammar, and really learn the fine points of it, to support my
understanding of German grammar, and language, and learn a translation
process.

If I had studied english grammar for a whole additional year, I would have
done some significant damage to my grade point average.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <3E5C0859.51C2FC4E@execpc.com>, David Neevel <neevel@execpc.com>
writes:

Sorry, Dave, but I must agree with you!
;-)

Please, Janus, explain your thinking.

>I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
>decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
>more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
>greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
>get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
>manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
>don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
>restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
>I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
>prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
>of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
>of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
>Janus wrote:
>
>> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.