New Rules

The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
level.

What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
reference.

--Harold Buck


New Rules, effective August 1, 2002

1. The regulation time for each bout in both pools and team matches is
three minutes.

2. An immediate warning (1st group) will be given against the competitor
whose blade is bent more than the rules allow (1 cm for épée, 2 cm for
foil, 4 cm for saber) at the moment the fencer indicates that she or he
is ready to fence.

3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
touch scored.)

4. In pools and during the first and second periods of a direct
elimination bout, if the fencers show themselves obviously unwilling to
fight, the referee will call "Halt!" and warn the fencers; should they
continue to be unwilling to fight, the referee will call "Halt!" In a
direct elimination bout, the fencers will go straight into the next
period of fencing, without the minute break and without the possibility
of consulting with their coaches. Should they be unwilling to fight
during the third period of fencing in a direct elimination bout or in a
pool bout, the referee will call "Halt!" and the fencers will start a
final minute of fencing preceded by drawing lots to decide the winner
should the score be equal at the end of the minute.

5. During team events, if adequate space is available, the organizer
shall reserve a zone for the team members. Only the team captain and one
additional person (coach, medical, et cetera) have the right to stay
with the team fencers inside this zone. The team zone must be well
delimited, with a line on the floor or some other system. If possible,
it should be sufficiently sized to seat six people and be located at
each end of, and separate from, the strip zone. During team matches, the
members of the team must remain within the zone reserved for their team.

6. During team events, no member of either team may enter inside the
limits of the strip zone without the permission of the referee. Should
such an offense occur, the referee will apply the penalty provided for
by articles t.114, t.116, and t.120 against the team at fault. The
warning will be awarded against the team, and will be valid for all the
bouts of the match. Each time any fencer commits another offense of the
1st group, in the same match, the referee is to penalize the fencer at
fault with a red card.

7. Direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, or end when three
periods of three minutes, with a one-minute period of rest between each
period, have passed. In saber only, the first period will end either
when the three minutes have passed or when the score of one of the
fencers has reached eight.

8. Crossing a lateral boundary without having passed one's opponent with
one foot or both feet results in the command "Halt!" and the opponent
advances one meter from where she or he was at the "Halt!"

9. A touch scored by the fencer who has crossed the lateral boundary of
the strip with one foot remains valid, if the action was launched before
the "Halt!"

10. If one of the fencers is off the strip with both feet, that fencer
may not score. Only a hit made by the fencer who remains on the strip
with at least one foot is counted, even in the case of a double touch,
if the action by the fencer who is on the strip was started before the
"Halt!"

In article <no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>,
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes
>The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
>the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
>strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
>level.
>
>What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
>reference.
>
>--Harold Buck

These don't look very new to me: they've been around since January last
year surely?

>
>New Rules, effective August 1, 2002
>
>1. The regulation time for each bout in both pools and team matches is
>three minutes.

Self explanatory: time is called after three minutes.

>
>2. An immediate warning (1st group) will be given against the competitor
>whose blade is bent more than the rules allow (1 cm for épée, 2 cm for
>foil, 4 cm for saber) at the moment the fencer indicates that she or he
>is ready to fence.

Rarely enforced rigorously in the competitions I enter... you'd need
test equipment near the piste...

>
>3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
>penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
>in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
>disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
>touch scored.)

Confusingly worded, but basically a clarification. A reasonably
controlled move such as a low lunge is no longer penalised just because
you end up with one hand on the piste. Nor are you penalised if you
trip over going backwards. I can't recall ever seeing the "disorderly
fencing"/ "irregular movements" rule (t.87) enforced at adult
competitions for any other reason.

>
>4. In pools and during the first and second periods of a direct
>elimination bout, if the fencers show themselves obviously unwilling to
>fight, the referee will call "Halt!" and warn the fencers; should they
>continue to be unwilling to fight, the referee will call "Halt!" In a
>direct elimination bout, the fencers will go straight into the next
>period of fencing, without the minute break and without the possibility
>of consulting with their coaches. Should they be unwilling to fight
>during the third period of fencing in a direct elimination bout or in a
>pool bout, the referee will call "Halt!" and the fencers will start a
>final minute of fencing preceded by drawing lots to decide the winner
>should the score be equal at the end of the minute.

This "passivity" rule doesn't get used much in my experience, even at
epee. (It might be tactically correct in team competitions for neither
fencer to attack, but the rule doesn't apply then).

>
>5. During team events, if adequate space is available, the organizer
>shall reserve a zone for the team members. Only the team captain and one
>additional person (coach, medical, et cetera) have the right to stay
>with the team fencers inside this zone. The team zone must be well
>delimited, with a line on the floor or some other system. If possible,
>it should be sufficiently sized to seat six people and be located at
>each end of, and separate from, the strip zone. During team matches, the
>members of the team must remain within the zone reserved for their team.
>
>6. During team events, no member of either team may enter inside the
>limits of the strip zone without the permission of the referee. Should
>such an offense occur, the referee will apply the penalty provided for
>by articles t.114, t.116, and t.120 against the team at fault. The
>warning will be awarded against the team, and will be valid for all the
>bouts of the match. Each time any fencer commits another offense of the
>1st group, in the same match, the referee is to penalize the fencer at
>fault with a red card.

I've no real experience of team competitions, except between clubs when
they aren't this formal.

>
>7. Direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, or end when three
>periods of three minutes, with a one-minute period of rest between each
>period, have passed. In saber only, the first period will end either
>when the three minutes have passed or when the score of one of the
>fencers has reached eight.

Having a break in sabre when the score reaches 8 is new and frequently
happens.

>
>8. Crossing a lateral boundary without having passed one's opponent with
>one foot or both feet results in the command "Halt!" and the opponent
>advances one meter from where she or he was at the "Halt!"
>
>9. A touch scored by the fencer who has crossed the lateral boundary of
>the strip with one foot remains valid, if the action was launched before
>the "Halt!"
>
>10. If one of the fencers is off the strip with both feet, that fencer
>may not score. Only a hit made by the fencer who remains on the strip
>with at least one foot is counted, even in the case of a double touch,
>if the action by the fencer who is on the strip was started before the
>"Halt!"

So now the rules give at least four cases:

a) leaving the piste for an "accidental cause": a normal call of halt,
with the normal rules for hits scored after the halt and no loss of
distance

b) leaving the piste with one foot [by intention]: the normal rules for
hits scored after the halt but loss of distance

c) leaving the piste with both feet [by intention]: the fencer who
leaves the piste cannot score a hit after leaving, and loses distance

d) leaving the piste with both feet to avoid being hit: a yellow card
(so any hit is annulled), and loss of distance.

In practice, (a) is usually assumed in the competitions I've been at,
unless one fencer has attempted a fleche or similar move past his
opponent, in which case (b) or (c) are called.

There's a list of what seem to be the same changes to the rules, more
formally expressed, on the British Fencing website at
http://www.britishfencing.com/Englis...nge21may02.doc
You may find they are easier to work through. Personally, I find it all
rather complicated - is this really supposed to attract the TV audience?

--
Tim S.

In article <no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>,
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes
>The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
>the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
>strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
>level.
>
>What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
>reference.
>
>--Harold Buck

These don't look very new to me: they've been around since January last
year surely?

>
>New Rules, effective August 1, 2002
>
>1. The regulation time for each bout in both pools and team matches is
>three minutes.

Self explanatory: time is called after three minutes.

>
>2. An immediate warning (1st group) will be given against the competitor
>whose blade is bent more than the rules allow (1 cm for épée, 2 cm for
>foil, 4 cm for saber) at the moment the fencer indicates that she or he
>is ready to fence.

Rarely enforced rigorously in the competitions I enter... you'd need
test equipment near the piste...

>
>3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
>penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
>in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
>disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
>touch scored.)

Confusingly worded, but basically a clarification. A reasonably
controlled move such as a low lunge is no longer penalised just because
you end up with one hand on the piste. Nor are you penalised if you
trip over going backwards. I can't recall ever seeing the "disorderly
fencing"/ "irregular movements" rule (t.87) enforced at adult
competitions for any other reason.

>
>4. In pools and during the first and second periods of a direct
>elimination bout, if the fencers show themselves obviously unwilling to
>fight, the referee will call "Halt!" and warn the fencers; should they
>continue to be unwilling to fight, the referee will call "Halt!" In a
>direct elimination bout, the fencers will go straight into the next
>period of fencing, without the minute break and without the possibility
>of consulting with their coaches. Should they be unwilling to fight
>during the third period of fencing in a direct elimination bout or in a
>pool bout, the referee will call "Halt!" and the fencers will start a
>final minute of fencing preceded by drawing lots to decide the winner
>should the score be equal at the end of the minute.

This "passivity" rule doesn't get used much in my experience, even at
epee. (It might be tactically correct in team competitions for neither
fencer to attack, but the rule doesn't apply then).

>
>5. During team events, if adequate space is available, the organizer
>shall reserve a zone for the team members. Only the team captain and one
>additional person (coach, medical, et cetera) have the right to stay
>with the team fencers inside this zone. The team zone must be well
>delimited, with a line on the floor or some other system. If possible,
>it should be sufficiently sized to seat six people and be located at
>each end of, and separate from, the strip zone. During team matches, the
>members of the team must remain within the zone reserved for their team.
>
>6. During team events, no member of either team may enter inside the
>limits of the strip zone without the permission of the referee. Should
>such an offense occur, the referee will apply the penalty provided for
>by articles t.114, t.116, and t.120 against the team at fault. The
>warning will be awarded against the team, and will be valid for all the
>bouts of the match. Each time any fencer commits another offense of the
>1st group, in the same match, the referee is to penalize the fencer at
>fault with a red card.

I've no real experience of team competitions, except between clubs when
they aren't this formal.

>
>7. Direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, or end when three
>periods of three minutes, with a one-minute period of rest between each
>period, have passed. In saber only, the first period will end either
>when the three minutes have passed or when the score of one of the
>fencers has reached eight.

Having a break in sabre when the score reaches 8 is new and frequently
happens.

>
>8. Crossing a lateral boundary without having passed one's opponent with
>one foot or both feet results in the command "Halt!" and the opponent
>advances one meter from where she or he was at the "Halt!"
>
>9. A touch scored by the fencer who has crossed the lateral boundary of
>the strip with one foot remains valid, if the action was launched before
>the "Halt!"
>
>10. If one of the fencers is off the strip with both feet, that fencer
>may not score. Only a hit made by the fencer who remains on the strip
>with at least one foot is counted, even in the case of a double touch,
>if the action by the fencer who is on the strip was started before the
>"Halt!"

So now the rules give at least four cases:

a) leaving the piste for an "accidental cause": a normal call of halt,
with the normal rules for hits scored after the halt and no loss of
distance

b) leaving the piste with one foot [by intention]: the normal rules for
hits scored after the halt but loss of distance

c) leaving the piste with both feet [by intention]: the fencer who
leaves the piste cannot score a hit after leaving, and loses distance

d) leaving the piste with both feet to avoid being hit: a yellow card
(so any hit is annulled), and loss of distance.

In practice, (a) is usually assumed in the competitions I've been at,
unless one fencer has attempted a fleche or similar move past his
opponent, in which case (b) or (c) are called.

There's a list of what seem to be the same changes to the rules, more
formally expressed, on the British Fencing website at
http://www.britishfencing.com/Englis...nge21may02.doc
You may find they are easier to work through. Personally, I find it all
rather complicated - is this really supposed to attract the TV audience?

--
Tim S.

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>...
> The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
> the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
> strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
> level.
>
> What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
> reference.
>
> --Harold Buck


Well, the new minute break in sabre is certainly being observed, to my
great disgust, as is the off-the-strip rule at least sometimes---I
have seen it called. The passivity thing is not I think something that
was ever going to see much use, the need for it being rare in my
experience.

As you know, strict and proper observance of all the rules at all
times is not something that's ever been given a lot of priority by
American referees...

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>...
> The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
> the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
> strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
> level.
>
> What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
> reference.
>
> --Harold Buck


Well, the new minute break in sabre is certainly being observed, to my
great disgust, as is the off-the-strip rule at least sometimes---I
have seen it called. The passivity thing is not I think something that
was ever going to see much use, the need for it being rare in my
experience.

As you know, strict and proper observance of all the rules at all
times is not something that's ever been given a lot of priority by
American referees...

Tim Schofield wrote:

>> 3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
>> penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
>> in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
>> disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
>> touch scored.)
>
>
> Confusingly worded, but basically a clarification. A reasonably
> controlled move such as a low lunge is no longer penalised just because
> you end up with one hand on the piste. Nor are you penalised if you
> trip over going backwards. I can't recall ever seeing the "disorderly
> fencing"/ "irregular movements" rule (t.87) enforced at adult
> competitions for any other reason.

Did find it applying to me in a recent bout when I followed up my
opponent made a lunge and touch and then fell for still unknown reasons.
Director happily pointed out that due to the recent change the touch was
still good and I wouldn't be penalized.

>
>>
>> 4. In pools and during the first and second periods of a direct
>> elimination bout, if the fencers show themselves obviously unwilling to
>> fight, the referee will call "Halt!" and warn the fencers; should they
>> continue to be unwilling to fight, the referee will call "Halt!" In a
>> direct elimination bout, the fencers will go straight into the next
>> period of fencing, without the minute break and without the possibility
>> of consulting with their coaches. Should they be unwilling to fight
>> during the third period of fencing in a direct elimination bout or in a
>> pool bout, the referee will call "Halt!" and the fencers will start a
>> final minute of fencing preceded by drawing lots to decide the winner
>> should the score be equal at the end of the minute.
>
>
> This "passivity" rule doesn't get used much in my experience, even at
> epee. (It might be tactically correct in team competitions for neither
> fencer to attack, but the rule doesn't apply then).
>

I did see this applied recently in the final bout of a C2
epee competition. As Eric Dew was the director I'll let him
explain the reasoning. Didn't make any real difference to
the play as far as I could tell despite the intent.

J.

Tim Schofield wrote:

>> 3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
>> penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
>> in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
>> disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
>> touch scored.)
>
>
> Confusingly worded, but basically a clarification. A reasonably
> controlled move such as a low lunge is no longer penalised just because
> you end up with one hand on the piste. Nor are you penalised if you
> trip over going backwards. I can't recall ever seeing the "disorderly
> fencing"/ "irregular movements" rule (t.87) enforced at adult
> competitions for any other reason.

Did find it applying to me in a recent bout when I followed up my
opponent made a lunge and touch and then fell for still unknown reasons.
Director happily pointed out that due to the recent change the touch was
still good and I wouldn't be penalized.

>
>>
>> 4. In pools and during the first and second periods of a direct
>> elimination bout, if the fencers show themselves obviously unwilling to
>> fight, the referee will call "Halt!" and warn the fencers; should they
>> continue to be unwilling to fight, the referee will call "Halt!" In a
>> direct elimination bout, the fencers will go straight into the next
>> period of fencing, without the minute break and without the possibility
>> of consulting with their coaches. Should they be unwilling to fight
>> during the third period of fencing in a direct elimination bout or in a
>> pool bout, the referee will call "Halt!" and the fencers will start a
>> final minute of fencing preceded by drawing lots to decide the winner
>> should the score be equal at the end of the minute.
>
>
> This "passivity" rule doesn't get used much in my experience, even at
> epee. (It might be tactically correct in team competitions for neither
> fencer to attack, but the rule doesn't apply then).
>

I did see this applied recently in the final bout of a C2
epee competition. As Eric Dew was the director I'll let him
explain the reasoning. Didn't make any real difference to
the play as far as I could tell despite the intent.

J.

In article <DSq8RXKggZQ+EAg3@oaktree.dtn.ntl.com>,
Tim Schofield <tim@foxtree.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>,
> Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes
> >The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
> >the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
> >strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
> >level.
> >
> >What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
> >reference.
> >
> >--Harold Buck
>
> These don't look very new to me: they've been around since January last
> year surely?
>
> >
> >New Rules, effective August 1, 2002

Well, the date here says it all.

> >1. The regulation time for each bout in both pools and team matches is
> >three minutes.
>
> Self explanatory: time is called after three minutes.

You misunderstood; I was saying that I'd heard rules 4 and 8 weren't
being enforced.

<snip>
> >3. Falling is no longer an offense and consequently is no longer
> >penalized. (It is understood that an offensive action that is launched
> >in such a way that the fencer is not in control, and thereby falls, is
> >disorderly fencing and does require a warning and the annulling of any
> >touch scored.)
>
> Confusingly worded, but basically a clarification. A reasonably
> controlled move such as a low lunge is no longer penalised just because
> you end up with one hand on the piste. Nor are you penalised if you
> trip over going backwards. I can't recall ever seeing the "disorderly
> fencing"/ "irregular movements" rule (t.87) enforced at adult
> competitions for any other reason.

You've always been allowed to put the non-weapon hand down. My guess was
that this wass intended to prevent people from being carded for a slip
as opposed to an out-of-control action that made them fall. It would
seem that if you did a passata soto and your back knee went down that
this would now be allowable, but I'm not sure.

<snip>
> >8. Crossing a lateral boundary without having passed one's opponent with
> >one foot or both feet results in the command "Halt!" and the opponent
> >advances one meter from where she or he was at the "Halt!"
> >
> >9. A touch scored by the fencer who has crossed the lateral boundary of
> >the strip with one foot remains valid, if the action was launched before
> >the "Halt!"
> >
> >10. If one of the fencers is off the strip with both feet, that fencer
> >may not score. Only a hit made by the fencer who remains on the strip
> >with at least one foot is counted, even in the case of a double touch,
> >if the action by the fencer who is on the strip was started before the
> >"Halt!"
>
> So now the rules give at least four cases:
>
> a) leaving the piste for an "accidental cause": a normal call of halt,
> with the normal rules for hits scored after the halt and no loss of
> distance
>
> b) leaving the piste with one foot [by intention]: the normal rules for
> hits scored after the halt but loss of distance
>
> c) leaving the piste with both feet [by intention]: the fencer who
> leaves the piste cannot score a hit after leaving, and loses distance
>
> d) leaving the piste with both feet to avoid being hit: a yellow card
> (so any hit is annulled), and loss of distance.
>
> In practice, (a) is usually assumed in the competitions I've been at,
> unless one fencer has attempted a fleche or similar move past his
> opponent, in which case (b) or (c) are called.

I don't see where intent is expressed in these rules.

> There's a list of what seem to be the same changes to the rules, more
> formally expressed, on the British Fencing website at
> http://www.britishfencing.com/Englis...nge21may02.doc
> You may find they are easier to work through. Personally, I find it all
> rather complicated - is this really supposed to attract the TV audience?
>
> --
> Tim S.


Thanks for the link!

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In article <dc7987e.0302051758.152681e9@posting.google.com> ,
William Marshal <trebuchet30303@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>...
>> The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
>> the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
>> strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
>> level.
>>
>> What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
>> reference.
>>
>> --Harold Buck
>
>
>Well, the new minute break in sabre is certainly being observed, to my
>great disgust, as is the off-the-strip rule at least sometimes---I
>have seen it called. The passivity thing is not I think something that
>was ever going to see much use, the need for it being rare in my
>experience.
>
>As you know, strict and proper observance of all the rules at all
>times is not something that's ever been given a lot of priority by
>American referees...


I don't think it's restricted to just US referees who do not strictly
and entirely enforce all rules. There are many instances, even (and
expecially) in the Olympics, where infractions are sloughed off and
ignored. Or some other ones were noted.

EDEW

In article <dc7987e.0302051758.152681e9@posting.google.com> ,
William Marshal <trebuchet30303@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-4FCC9E.07084305022003@netnews.attbi.com>...
>> The USFA website has a list of rules effective August 1, 2001, including
>> the much-discussed "passivity" rule and new rules about 1 foot off the
>> strip. I was told these rules are not being enforced at the national
>> level.
>>
>> What's up with that? I've pasted (most of) these rules below for
>> reference.
>>
>> --Harold Buck
>
>
>Well, the new minute break in sabre is certainly being observed, to my
>great disgust, as is the off-the-strip rule at least sometimes---I
>have seen it called. The passivity thing is not I think something that
>was ever going to see much use, the need for it being rare in my
>experience.
>
>As you know, strict and proper observance of all the rules at all
>times is not something that's ever been given a lot of priority by
>American referees...


I don't think it's restricted to just US referees who do not strictly
and entirely enforce all rules. There are many instances, even (and
expecially) in the Olympics, where infractions are sloughed off and
ignored. Or some other ones were noted.

EDEW