Rules Regarding Withdrawals

> How about t.88:
>
> "Competitors must fence to their utmost ability in a sportsmanlike
> manner until the end of the competition in order to obtain the best
> possible classification, without giving away touches or seeking to be
> favored by being given touches by anyone."
>
> The fencer is obliged not to withdraw.

Here's a somewhat different question:

Can a fencer be forced to withdraw against their will?

In the situation where a fencer becomes seriously injured during a match,
such as a broken ankle or penetration by a broken weapon, can a fencer be
forced to withdraw against their wishes, and if so, what is the effect of
this?

-Bill

> How about t.88:
>
> "Competitors must fence to their utmost ability in a sportsmanlike
> manner until the end of the competition in order to obtain the best
> possible classification, without giving away touches or seeking to be
> favored by being given touches by anyone."
>
> The fencer is obliged not to withdraw.

Here's a somewhat different question:

Can a fencer be forced to withdraw against their will?

In the situation where a fencer becomes seriously injured during a match,
such as a broken ankle or penetration by a broken weapon, can a fencer be
forced to withdraw against their wishes, and if so, what is the effect of
this?

-Bill

On 29 Jan 2003 21:58:26 GMT, remise@aol.com (Remise) held forth:

I understand the from the below your "manager" is the person at fault,
so poring over the rulebook (your USFA tome is the same as our BFA
one, AFAICT) and looking at the fencer here is inappropriate...

>1) Fourteen fencers appear up for a scheduled open event.
>2) The manager decides he wants to get 15, to raise the rating to a C-1, so
>phone calls are made to various fencers around town.

This is the point at which it all starts to break down. Your president
is at fault (PTP) for ringing round for fencers that would not benefit
from the tournament.

>3) A 15th fencer does show up, after the scheduled closing time. It is made
>clear to him -- and apparently everybody else, too -- that his sole purpose is
>to raise the rated level of the event. He is requested to register, fence just
>one bout, and withdraw.

This smells illegal. I read Mark's post below and agree with his
suggestion.

>4) This is exactly what he does. There is no pretense of illness, injury, or
>any other valid reason for withdrawal. Needless to say, his withdrawal has a
>negative affect upon the indicators of the four remaining fencers in his pool,
>but that is a minor quibble.

Yes, but largely irrelevant. It's not the fencer's fault.

>Where in the rulebook does it say this cannot be done? We would like to
>discourage both our managers from doing such a thing in the future. Quite
>frankly, I was stunned to be told this had happened. The least he could have
>done was fallen down on the floor and insisted his ankle was twisted. I won't
>even address the behavior of the manager.

Well, the rulebook is there to tell presidents what to do, not what
not to do. It gives them the power to penalise the fencer, but not the
wherewithal to discipline one presiding...
--
Cheers,
wreckferret
Use ROT13 to reply ICQ#163264

In article <k21_9.249930$Hs2.14491434@kent.svc.tds.net>,
"Tyson Patterson" <cptdoom9@yahoo.com> wrote:

> OK, I ran a search on the 99 rules.
>
> Chapter 5, Individual Competitons
> 1. General Rules for Pools
> O.20 Withdrawal
>
> A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the pool,
> and his results are annulled as if he or she had not taken part.
>
>


But, as someone else pointed out, if they are excluded during the DE,
their position is held in the standings by "FENCER EXCLUDED." So the
question becomes, do different rules apply if the person withdraws or is
excluded from the DE, or does the rule about "his results are annulled
as if he or she had not taken part" only apply to the results of the
pool and not the number of people in the competition?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In article <k21_9.249930$Hs2.14491434@kent.svc.tds.net>,
"Tyson Patterson" <cptdoom9@yahoo.com> wrote:

> OK, I ran a search on the 99 rules.
>
> Chapter 5, Individual Competitons
> 1. General Rules for Pools
> O.20 Withdrawal
>
> A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the pool,
> and his results are annulled as if he or she had not taken part.
>
>


But, as someone else pointed out, if they are excluded during the DE,
their position is held in the standings by "FENCER EXCLUDED." So the
question becomes, do different rules apply if the person withdraws or is
excluded from the DE, or does the rule about "his results are annulled
as if he or she had not taken part" only apply to the results of the
pool and not the number of people in the competition?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the USFA
trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the authority to
do that.

Althea

I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the USFA
trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the authority to
do that.

Althea

It is my error in not being clear. I know this, too. I will repeat my
question: Is there a rule against withdrawing without a valid reason? Somebody
got a "C" in saber because this person entered, and four other people had lower
indicators (highest possible being +15, instead of +20), because he withdrew.

Rather than continuing to be lazy, I will return to the rulebook.

Thanks again,
B.C.. Milligan
>
>A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the pool,
>and his results are annulled as if he or she had not taken part.
>
>
>

It is my error in not being clear. I know this, too. I will repeat my
question: Is there a rule against withdrawing without a valid reason? Somebody
got a "C" in saber because this person entered, and four other people had lower
indicators (highest possible being +15, instead of +20), because he withdrew.

Rather than continuing to be lazy, I will return to the rulebook.

Thanks again,
B.C.. Milligan
>
>A fencer who withdraws, or who is excluded, is scratched from the pool,
>and his results are annulled as if he or she had not taken part.
>
>
>

Thanks, Mark. That, I believe, is what I was looking for.

B.C. Milligan

Thanks, Mark. That, I believe, is what I was looking for.

B.C. Milligan

Thanks to all who responded. The problem, of course, lies with the manager. Our
Executive Committee is meeting tomorrow night, and we will not take away any
ratings earned in that event, as from the competitors' point of view, this was
a sanctioned event, and as far as they knew (mostly being younger fencers),
there was nothing illegal done.

The actions of the manager are a different story, and we have to address this
unpleasant subject at our meeting. What is likely is a strong statement to the
division that this is unethical, as well as being illegal, and that we will
institute a rule which forbids any manager doing this to manage again, for at
least a year.

B.C. Milligan

Thanks to all who responded. The problem, of course, lies with the manager. Our
Executive Committee is meeting tomorrow night, and we will not take away any
ratings earned in that event, as from the competitors' point of view, this was
a sanctioned event, and as far as they knew (mostly being younger fencers),
there was nothing illegal done.

The actions of the manager are a different story, and we have to address this
unpleasant subject at our meeting. What is likely is a strong statement to the
division that this is unethical, as well as being illegal, and that we will
institute a rule which forbids any manager doing this to manage again, for at
least a year.

B.C. Milligan

AHaropulos wrote:
> I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the USFA
> trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the authority to
> do that.
>
> Althea

Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?

j.

AHaropulos wrote:
> I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the USFA
> trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the authority to
> do that.
>
> Althea

Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?

j.

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:
>
>
> AHaropulos wrote:
>
>> I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the
>> USFA
>> trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the
>> authority to
>> do that.
>>
>> Althea
>
>
> Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
> threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?
>
> j.
>

He certainly does have the authority to do that. It doesn't even have
to be life threatening. It can be anything that in their judgement is a
safety risk. Which is extremely broad.

I recall one time a canadian fencer at a U.S. North American Cup fainted
on the strip. When she recovered consciousness in a few minutes she
insisted she was fine and wanted to continue fencing. She was not
allowed to. This wasn't even a case of overheating, it was cold and the
first round.

gary hayenga

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:
>
>
> AHaropulos wrote:
>
>> I was going to be forced to withdraw from my event at Nationals by the
>> USFA
>> trainer because I have an overheating problem. He says he has the
>> authority to
>> do that.
>>
>> Althea
>
>
> Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
> threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?
>
> j.
>

He certainly does have the authority to do that. It doesn't even have
to be life threatening. It can be anything that in their judgement is a
safety risk. Which is extremely broad.

I recall one time a canadian fencer at a U.S. North American Cup fainted
on the strip. When she recovered consciousness in a few minutes she
insisted she was fine and wanted to continue fencing. She was not
allowed to. This wasn't even a case of overheating, it was cold and the
first round.

gary hayenga

>Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
>threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?
>
>j.

In this case, I did pass out after my last bout of the pools. Anyone that
knows me knows that this is a common occurrence for me in venues that are too
warm. I had to get my physician to fax the trainer a medical okay to continue.
Luckily, it was about 2 hours before DE's started. I was also informed that
the trainer had the right to ban me from all future USFA competitions.
Althea

>Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
>threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to withdraw?
>
>j.

In this case, I did pass out after my last bout of the pools. Anyone that
knows me knows that this is a common occurrence for me in venues that are too
warm. I had to get my physician to fax the trainer a medical okay to continue.
Luckily, it was about 2 hours before DE's started. I was also informed that
the trainer had the right to ban me from all future USFA competitions.
Althea

That is because once you have an episode of heatstroke (which appears to be
what you described), your chances of having another episode (possibly fatal)
increase considerably. Obviously, you need to consult your own physician.
Below are two links and some tips for prevention (HYDRATION is important):

Deterrence/Prevention (from http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic236.htm ):
-Use air conditioning, fans, and adequate ventilation.
-Drink less than 200 mOsm/L (400-500 mL) of cool fluids before exercising
and 200-300 mL at frequent intervals during exercise.
-Wear light, loose-fitting, and light-colored clothing.
-Bath or shower in tepid water.
-Acclimatization typically requires 90 minutes per day of exercise in hot
conditions for at least 1 week. Gradually increase exercise intensity and
duration.
-Monitor body weight before and after exercise.
-Weight loss of more than 7% of body weight represents severe water
depletion. Cease exercise and rehydrate to normal weight.
-Weight loss of 5-6% of body weight represents moderate water depletion.
Hydrate to normal weight and proceed with light workouts.
-Weight loss of 2-3% body weight represents mild water depletion. Rehydrate
to normal body weight before engaging in further exercise.
More information http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic956.htm

t.33 "... If the doctor considers, before or at the end of the 10-minute
break, that the fencer is incapable of continuing the bout, he or she [the
doctor or medical delegate] will decide that the fencer should retire
(individual events) and/or be replaced, if possible (team events)."
J. Cavazos


"AHaropulos" <aharopulos@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030131141347.03600.00001037@mb-mb.aol.com...
> >Kindly explain what you mean by "an overheating problem". Is it life
> >threatening? And did this person back off trying to force you to
withdraw?
> >
> >j.
>
> In this case, I did pass out after my last bout of the pools. Anyone that
> knows me knows that this is a common occurrence for me in venues that are
too
> warm. I had to get my physician to fax the trainer a medical okay to
continue.
> Luckily, it was about 2 hours before DE's started. I was also informed
that
> the trainer had the right to ban me from all future USFA competitions.
> Althea