Re:Referee issues - was: New England Division's Spring Schedule

Jonathan Jefferies at jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net wrote on 1/12/03 9:57
PM:

>
>
> Graynor <David Sierra> wrote:
>
>>
>> You guys pay referees $100/day?!?!?!?! Wow! around here (North Texas
>> Division), the Division officers have trouble with even paying the USFA
>> standard $40/day for Division qualifying events!
>>
> Interesting but I've been finding that you have to go to the section
> level before you can count on having official directors as opposed to
> self directed. Of course epee is much more amenable to self direction
> than foil or sabre where you really need a truly trained director.

You know, though, this is actually a subject close to my own heart, as a
referee, coach, former competitor, tournament organizer, and Section Circuit
Commissioner.

-As a competitor, I certainly want and expect a capable referee for my
bouts, and am willing to pay the entry fees to support such. No matter what
the level of the competition.

-As a coach, I want my students to have the benefit of trained, competent,
unbiased, dedicated referees for all their bouts. No matter what the level
of the competition. Boy am I dreaming.

-As a referee, I am willing (and expect to be) worked to the limit of
exhaustion and beyond for, and let be honest here, slave wages, but I would
like to at least be given lunch, and maybe a little pocket change. I damn
well don't want to end up losing money after paying for travel and hotel.
Thank you, I get enough abuse from athletes, coaches, spectators and the
like. No matter what the level of the competition.

-As a tournament coordinator, I understand the expense of hiring good
referees, and the incredible scarcity of them. I also hate for any fencer to
spend their money on an event I organize, and then end up having to referee
bouts - they showed up to fence, not referee. I know that the best way to
ensure that I have enough referees for the next event I try to put on is to
take good care of the ones that I have. I'm also proud of the fact that
every tournament that I've been directly involved with as part of the
tournament organizing staff for the past 4 years had enough referees for
EVERY pool and DE bout, in every weapon, and STILL made money (maybe not a
lot, but no losses). I wish I could say the same for all of the events I've
been associated with as a Section Circuit Commissioner and have spent many,
many hours working to ameliorate the situation.

-As a Section Circuit Commissioner, I am acutely aware of the scarcity of
referees - excellent, solid, in-training, developmental, and just plain bad.
I lean on all of the tournament organizers in the Southwest Sectional
Circuit Cup (SSCC) to have as many referees present as they can get their
hands on, and most of the time, its still not enough. To put on one of our
larger SSCC events requires two or three excellent referees (rated 3 or
better), five to six solid ones (rated 4-6), and as many (eight would be
nice) in-training and developmental ones (rated 7-10 or unrated). Its almost
impossible to get that many. Developing referees should be everyone's
business and are a potential huge bottleneck to growing the sport. We're
taking baby steps towards this here in the Southwest Section and are trying
to identify, train, mentor and develop referees, but right now its kind of
like riding the crest of a wave, praying you're not going wipe-out
spectacularly, and its happened. More than once, sadly so. Having an event
bog down because you simply don't have enough qualified referees on hand is
a major tragedy. And kind of tends to royally piss off fencers and coaches.
With good reason.

>> Actually, this raises a good question. What are the standards for referees
>> in various parts of the country? And, while you're at it, what is the
>> general rate of the entry fees?
>
> Again an interesting issue.
> For entry fees you can get an estimate by looking at the
> entry forms for national events ($30 for the tournament and $30 for
> each event you enter). Sectional (PCS for me) ranging from $30 per
> tournament and $30 for each event to $25 and $20 event). And then the
> local events (BayCup) seem to range in the $15-$20 range per event and
> $20 ?? for the entire series. But the local events tend to be almost
> entirely self directed (definitely true for epee and while not sure
> I believe most likely for foil and sabre also) which is not the
> case at the sectional and national level events I've attended.
> At the BayCup I have heard occasional complaint that some use the
> tournaments as a cash cow i.e. that the clubs cut costs by not providing
> or paying for directors. Not sure whether such complaints are valid.

In my experience, people who make these kinds of complaints have never tried
to put on a tournament with enough referees on hand. It is HARD work to put
on a good tournament. And if you're using a tournament as a cash cow, you
must be really skimping on things like awards, referees, equipment, etc.
That being said, I have seen occurrences of such things appearing to occur.
If that¹s the case, I either make a mental note to never go back to said
event, or have a quiet word with the officials, if I know them. Its possible
that they had enough referees hired, and then had last minute cancellations.

Cheers,
David Sierra

To reply remove NOSPAM from address

Graynor <NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com> wrote in <BA49036B.77D1%
NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com>:

> Developing referees should be everyone's
>business and are a potential huge bottleneck to growing the sport.

You can say that again.

I am personally very interested in becoming a rated referee because I
want to be able to give my share back into a sport that I love. But it's
an uphill battle. I took the referee course at Nationals this past
summer, but because of scheduling I wasn't able to take the actual
written test. I've tried to contact the MD division person theoretically
in charge of administering the test - not even a reply. MD division
doesn't run any referee clinics; I accidentally missed one in
Philadelphia; and there was one in DC that I would have gone to
except... they weren't actually administering the test.

It's frustrating to hear complaints about not having enough rated
referees, and to be a person who wants to be one, and not be able to do
it. I mean, what else do I have to do?

In the meantime, I do help out how I can. At the Charm City Classic there
were "E" events as well as the opens, and I refereed in the sabre E all
day - the Es and Us deserve consistent refereeing as well, and they're
going to suffer even more than the more skilled fencers from having a
self-directed pool.

I'm hoping to be able to take the test at the March Div II/III NAC, at
least...

--Holly

Graynor <NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com> wrote in <BA49036B.77D1%
NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com>:

> Developing referees should be everyone's
>business and are a potential huge bottleneck to growing the sport.

You can say that again.

I am personally very interested in becoming a rated referee because I
want to be able to give my share back into a sport that I love. But it's
an uphill battle. I took the referee course at Nationals this past
summer, but because of scheduling I wasn't able to take the actual
written test. I've tried to contact the MD division person theoretically
in charge of administering the test - not even a reply. MD division
doesn't run any referee clinics; I accidentally missed one in
Philadelphia; and there was one in DC that I would have gone to
except... they weren't actually administering the test.

It's frustrating to hear complaints about not having enough rated
referees, and to be a person who wants to be one, and not be able to do
it. I mean, what else do I have to do?

In the meantime, I do help out how I can. At the Charm City Classic there
were "E" events as well as the opens, and I refereed in the sabre E all
day - the Es and Us deserve consistent refereeing as well, and they're
going to suffer even more than the more skilled fencers from having a
self-directed pool.

I'm hoping to be able to take the test at the March Div II/III NAC, at
least...

--Holly

There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/

I don't think most people can get away with what I did, which was (a)
take the written test and pass (b) never take a practical (c) keep
volunteering at various Summer National events for years a day here, a
day there, until (d) my USFA card arrived with a rating on it, which
was an unwelcome surprise to me, believe me. I much preferred being a
volunteer to being paid. Since then I've taken the referee course a
couple of times because I never actually expected to have to really
KNOW this stuff. And if you're paid you can't tell them you're done
for the day and leave to go see a movie.

See you at the Div II/III/Vets!

--Delia

OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net (Holly E. Ordway) wrote in message news:<Xns9303B7DF95439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71. 239>...
> Graynor <NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com> wrote in <BA49036B.77D1%
> NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com>:
>
> > Developing referees should be everyone's
> >business and are a potential huge bottleneck to growing the sport.
>
> You can say that again.
>
> I am personally very interested in becoming a rated referee because I
> want to be able to give my share back into a sport that I love. But it's
> an uphill battle. I took the referee course at Nationals this past
> summer, but because of scheduling I wasn't able to take the actual
> written test. I've tried to contact the MD division person theoretically
> in charge of administering the test - not even a reply. MD division
> doesn't run any referee clinics; I accidentally missed one in
> Philadelphia; and there was one in DC that I would have gone to
> except... they weren't actually administering the test.
>
> It's frustrating to hear complaints about not having enough rated
> referees, and to be a person who wants to be one, and not be able to do
> it. I mean, what else do I have to do?
>
> In the meantime, I do help out how I can. At the Charm City Classic there
> were "E" events as well as the opens, and I refereed in the sabre E all
> day - the Es and Us deserve consistent refereeing as well, and they're
> going to suffer even more than the more skilled fencers from having a
> self-directed pool.
>
> I'm hoping to be able to take the test at the March Div II/III NAC, at
> least...
>
> --Holly

There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/

I don't think most people can get away with what I did, which was (a)
take the written test and pass (b) never take a practical (c) keep
volunteering at various Summer National events for years a day here, a
day there, until (d) my USFA card arrived with a rating on it, which
was an unwelcome surprise to me, believe me. I much preferred being a
volunteer to being paid. Since then I've taken the referee course a
couple of times because I never actually expected to have to really
KNOW this stuff. And if you're paid you can't tell them you're done
for the day and leave to go see a movie.

See you at the Div II/III/Vets!

--Delia

OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net (Holly E. Ordway) wrote in message news:<Xns9303B7DF95439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71. 239>...
> Graynor <NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com> wrote in <BA49036B.77D1%
> NOSPAMLordgraynor@mac.com>:
>
> > Developing referees should be everyone's
> >business and are a potential huge bottleneck to growing the sport.
>
> You can say that again.
>
> I am personally very interested in becoming a rated referee because I
> want to be able to give my share back into a sport that I love. But it's
> an uphill battle. I took the referee course at Nationals this past
> summer, but because of scheduling I wasn't able to take the actual
> written test. I've tried to contact the MD division person theoretically
> in charge of administering the test - not even a reply. MD division
> doesn't run any referee clinics; I accidentally missed one in
> Philadelphia; and there was one in DC that I would have gone to
> except... they weren't actually administering the test.
>
> It's frustrating to hear complaints about not having enough rated
> referees, and to be a person who wants to be one, and not be able to do
> it. I mean, what else do I have to do?
>
> In the meantime, I do help out how I can. At the Charm City Classic there
> were "E" events as well as the opens, and I refereed in the sabre E all
> day - the Es and Us deserve consistent refereeing as well, and they're
> going to suffer even more than the more skilled fencers from having a
> self-directed pool.
>
> I'm hoping to be able to take the test at the March Div II/III NAC, at
> least...
>
> --Holly

dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
<a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:

>There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
>Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
>Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/

I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
*really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.

>See you at the Div II/III/Vets!

Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.

But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.

--Holly

dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
<a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:

>There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
>Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
>Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/

I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
*really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.

>See you at the Div II/III/Vets!

Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.

But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.

--Holly

Actually, BCAF is less than an hour from Philadelphia, and it's
basically up 95, but you've got a point. Sorry I won't see you in
Arlington! I'm going to try to make that Hayfever Open if there's a
women's--it's so rare to have women's competition. The Big Apple Open
was great because of that.

--Delia

OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net (Holly E. Ordway) wrote in message news:<Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71. 239>...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.
>
> >See you at the Div II/III/Vets!
>
> Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
> schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
> events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
> prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
> days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.
>
> But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
> further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
> sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.
>
> --Holly

Actually, BCAF is less than an hour from Philadelphia, and it's
basically up 95, but you've got a point. Sorry I won't see you in
Arlington! I'm going to try to make that Hayfever Open if there's a
women's--it's so rare to have women's competition. The Big Apple Open
was great because of that.

--Delia

OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net (Holly E. Ordway) wrote in message news:<Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71. 239>...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.
>
> >See you at the Div II/III/Vets!
>
> Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
> schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
> events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
> prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
> days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.
>
> But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
> further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
> sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.
>
> --Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71.2 39...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New
Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive
even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.

Depends what you mean by "reasonably near". BCAF is about 45 minutes
from Philadelphia, up I-95.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71.2 39...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New
Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive
even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.

Depends what you mean by "reasonably near". BCAF is about 45 minutes
from Philadelphia, up I-95.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

Holly...I will be going to the class and will be passing through
Baltimore....I live in Brookeville....you are welcome to travel with me...It
should take about 2.5 hours..Leonardo
"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71.2 39...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.
>
> >See you at the Div II/III/Vets!
>
> Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
> schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
> events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
> prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
> days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.
>
> But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
> further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
> sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.
>
> --Holly

Holly...I will be going to the class and will be passing through
Baltimore....I live in Brookeville....you are welcome to travel with me...It
should take about 2.5 hours..Leonardo
"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9304C6ECD5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.166.71.2 39...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> <a02e0196.0301141907.69b23d50@posting.google.com >:
>
> >There's another referee course & test scheduled at BCAF in New Hope,
> >Pennsylvania on January 26th, I believe. Check the Philadelphia
> >Division Schedule at http://www.phildiv-usfa.org/
>
> I saw that, actually, but if I read the directions right, BCAF is
> *really* far from Baltimore... isn't it a couple of hours' drive even
> from Philadelphia? I'd do it if were reasonably near Philly.
>
> >See you at the Div II/III/Vets!
>
> Alas, as it turns out, no... Right after posting, I checked the NAC
> schedule and saw that I could only fence two out of a possible three
> events, and those two were on opposite ends of the weekend. Given the
> prospect of having to take at least 3 days off from work and pay for five
> days' stay for two events, I decided it was best not to go.
>
> But I am going to make up for it by going to at least one extra event
> further than usual from home - in the NJ Div schedule there's a *women's
> sabre* event listed as part of the Hayfever Open on May 17.
>
> --Holly

You know, if you're aching for a women's sabre competition, check out a
number of the events in the Southwest Section. All of our Section Circuit
events (there are three more remaining - www.southwestfencing.org/sscc) have
Womens's Sabre events. The Crescent City Open in New Orleans will be a
couple of weeks after the Arlington NAC and has a history of great turnout
for Women's Sabre events. And then there's also a tournament called
SabreCave in the fall in Dallas that also has a Women's Sabre competition.

Cheers,
David Sierra

To reply off-list remove NOSPAM from address

Delia M. Turner at dmturner@dmturner.org wrote on 1/15/03 8:59 PM:

> Actually, BCAF is less than an hour from Philadelphia, and it's
> basically up 95, but you've got a point. Sorry I won't see you in
> Arlington! I'm going to try to make that Hayfever Open if there's a
> women's--it's so rare to have women's competition. The Big Apple Open
> was great because of that.

You know, if you're aching for a women's sabre competition, check out a
number of the events in the Southwest Section. All of our Section Circuit
events (there are three more remaining - www.southwestfencing.org/sscc) have
Womens's Sabre events. The Crescent City Open in New Orleans will be a
couple of weeks after the Arlington NAC and has a history of great turnout
for Women's Sabre events. And then there's also a tournament called
SabreCave in the fall in Dallas that also has a Women's Sabre competition.

Cheers,
David Sierra

To reply off-list remove NOSPAM from address

Delia M. Turner at dmturner@dmturner.org wrote on 1/15/03 8:59 PM:

> Actually, BCAF is less than an hour from Philadelphia, and it's
> basically up 95, but you've got a point. Sorry I won't see you in
> Arlington! I'm going to try to make that Hayfever Open if there's a
> women's--it's so rare to have women's competition. The Big Apple Open
> was great because of that.

"Leonardo Jose" <leonardojose@comcast.net> wrote in
<Y8-cnbG148WnEbWjXTWc3Q@comcast.com>:

>Holly...I will be going to the class and will be passing through
>Baltimore....I live in Brookeville....you are welcome to travel with
>me...It should take about 2.5 hours..Leonardo

Thanks very much for the kind offer! but it's rather too long a trip
for me. If nothing closer to home turns up this spring, I'll just take
the test at Nationals.

Cheers,
Holly

"Leonardo Jose" <leonardojose@comcast.net> wrote in
<Y8-cnbG148WnEbWjXTWc3Q@comcast.com>:

>Holly...I will be going to the class and will be passing through
>Baltimore....I live in Brookeville....you are welcome to travel with
>me...It should take about 2.5 hours..Leonardo

Thanks very much for the kind offer! but it's rather too long a trip
for me. If nothing closer to home turns up this spring, I'll just take
the test at Nationals.

Cheers,
Holly