Flicks and back of the head protection

Dieter Schlaepfer wrote:

> I recall reading an excerpt of an Italian master a few centuries ago . . .

<blush> I meant to say "Italian master *of* a few centuries ago." I'm
not *that* old. <grin>

Dieter

> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that
is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.

Not necessarily. I got hit once by a side-shot flick by a fencer who was
taller than me and jumped forward with the flick and forgot to recalibrate
his aim.

Luckily his distance was thrown off sufficient that his blade hit the side
of my head before the tip landed.

> b) keep proper distance and posture.
>
> I wonder what a fencer would do...

The point is that sometimes **** happens. You can be in-fighting and against
all reason someone goes for a flick to the back and wildly misses. You could
5'3" fencing someone 6'3" throwing a flick from God. They could come with a
flick off of a flying leap. Who's to say? Sometimes even professional race
car drivers crash spectacularly. They wear safety equipment for times like
those. Why are we being so arrogant about it?

-Bill

> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that
is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.

Not necessarily. I got hit once by a side-shot flick by a fencer who was
taller than me and jumped forward with the flick and forgot to recalibrate
his aim.

Luckily his distance was thrown off sufficient that his blade hit the side
of my head before the tip landed.

> b) keep proper distance and posture.
>
> I wonder what a fencer would do...

The point is that sometimes **** happens. You can be in-fighting and against
all reason someone goes for a flick to the back and wildly misses. You could
5'3" fencing someone 6'3" throwing a flick from God. They could come with a
flick off of a flying leap. Who's to say? Sometimes even professional race
car drivers crash spectacularly. They wear safety equipment for times like
those. Why are we being so arrogant about it?

-Bill

Fencing ain't race car driving. There is a fencing solution for every fencing
problem. If you don't want to get flicked REPEATEDLY in the back of the head,
you adjust your behavior. Or wear a marmalade bucket on your head.

Chris

Fencing ain't race car driving. There is a fencing solution for every fencing
problem. If you don't want to get flicked REPEATEDLY in the back of the head,
you adjust your behavior. Or wear a marmalade bucket on your head.

Chris

I have hit people in the back of the head, and have myself been hit.
It can happen when, for example, I fleche at my oponent, he parries me
in four, and I try to hit his back as I run past.

As the defender, I frequently face fast flechers. They fleche, I
parry with a large, diagonal six, but by the time I riposte they are
passing me, so I hit by reaching backwards over my shoulder. This may
hit their back or their head.

I have hit people in the back of the head, and have myself been hit.
It can happen when, for example, I fleche at my oponent, he parries me
in four, and I try to hit his back as I run past.

As the defender, I frequently face fast flechers. They fleche, I
parry with a large, diagonal six, but by the time I riposte they are
passing me, so I hit by reaching backwards over my shoulder. This may
hit their back or their head.

debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy) wrote
> Truth be told, he is usually amazingly accurate with it; though it
> stings from time to time.

"Usually" is not always. You did not say, in this or your original
post on the topic, that this was the first time he's done this. To
me, this sounds like something very similar has happened from him in
the past.

From your original post:

"Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
next.

However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
happen again."

So this happened to you at least 6 times in *one* night. He *should*
feel awkward about this. If it's happened to you, I'd be willing to
bet that it's happened to other people too.

> This whole string was to be see as a forum on how to adequately and
> within USFA/FIE rules protect oneself with various pieces of
> equipment. I don't want to retaliate against Mr. Flickster...he's a
> CLOSE friend which makes it tough to approach him about it. Also, I'm
> a bit too Confucian in my beliefs to broach it with him. I just wanted
> to quietly find a way to armor myself so that he could continue to
> fence at his best...and in the way he is most comfortable fencing
> whilst protecting myself. Then if he saw to what lengths I was going
> to then he'd might feel obliged to tone it down a bit.

He's such a close friend that you can't talk to him when he's doing
something dangerous, both to you and potentially others? Will you
wait until he's done this to somebody else and drawn blood, then go up
to them and say, "You know, he's *usually* pretty good at this."?
Small comfort for the person who's injured.
The thing is, he's not fencing at his best. He is repeatedly causing
harm with something he has direct control over.
The only way he's going to know that he needs to tone down his fencing
is if you say something to him directly. Otherwise all your
preparation will be useless if the action continues. The only thing
that happens will be that you don't get hurt.

Chris "ObeeKris" Lisy

debergerac@ziplip.com (Phillip Inoy) wrote
> Truth be told, he is usually amazingly accurate with it; though it
> stings from time to time.

"Usually" is not always. You did not say, in this or your original
post on the topic, that this was the first time he's done this. To
me, this sounds like something very similar has happened from him in
the past.

From your original post:

"Fortunately in my case I was not injured, but my friend who I can
assure you is quite awesome with this weapon was a bit off form tonite
and I was hit with the flat of the blade in the neck and across the
back of the head a total of 3-4 times in a bout. 2 more times in the
next.

However, it hurt so badly that I don't want it to happen again, nor do
I want to approach him about it; I don't want him to feel awkward when
he fences me...but it did hurt badly enough that I don't want it to
happen again."

So this happened to you at least 6 times in *one* night. He *should*
feel awkward about this. If it's happened to you, I'd be willing to
bet that it's happened to other people too.

> This whole string was to be see as a forum on how to adequately and
> within USFA/FIE rules protect oneself with various pieces of
> equipment. I don't want to retaliate against Mr. Flickster...he's a
> CLOSE friend which makes it tough to approach him about it. Also, I'm
> a bit too Confucian in my beliefs to broach it with him. I just wanted
> to quietly find a way to armor myself so that he could continue to
> fence at his best...and in the way he is most comfortable fencing
> whilst protecting myself. Then if he saw to what lengths I was going
> to then he'd might feel obliged to tone it down a bit.

He's such a close friend that you can't talk to him when he's doing
something dangerous, both to you and potentially others? Will you
wait until he's done this to somebody else and drawn blood, then go up
to them and say, "You know, he's *usually* pretty good at this."?
Small comfort for the person who's injured.
The thing is, he's not fencing at his best. He is repeatedly causing
harm with something he has direct control over.
The only way he's going to know that he needs to tone down his fencing
is if you say something to him directly. Otherwise all your
preparation will be useless if the action continues. The only thing
that happens will be that you don't get hurt.

Chris "ObeeKris" Lisy

On 26 Jan 2003 18:38:25 -0800, obeekris@hotmail.com (ObeeKris) held
forth:


>He's such a close friend that you can't talk to him when he's doing
>something dangerous, both to you and potentially others?

Dangerous fencing? Red card? He'll soon learn...
--
Cheers,
wreckferret
Use ROT13 to reply ICQ#163264

> Hmmm, let me recap:
>
> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.
>


Not true at all. I have hit my coach on the back of the head more than
once with a flick during a lesson (definitely not intentionally - it
is something I try to avoid!). I am only 5'4". He is quite a bit
taller than me, but was perfectly upright when I hit him there. A
flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap
around and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit
someone on the back and not the back of the head...).

Honey

> Hmmm, let me recap:
>
> To get hit on the back of your head, your head must be in a position that is
>
> a) below its natural elevated state
> b) so close to the opponent that the entire foible of the opponent's blade
> wraps around the back rim of your mask.
>


Not true at all. I have hit my coach on the back of the head more than
once with a flick during a lesson (definitely not intentionally - it
is something I try to avoid!). I am only 5'4". He is quite a bit
taller than me, but was perfectly upright when I hit him there. A
flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap
around and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit
someone on the back and not the back of the head...).

Honey

<< A flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap around
and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit someone on the back
and not the back of the head...)>>

....which, of course, does not at all contradict my not about distance. If
there's enough foible to whip over shoulder or mask And hit flat on the back or
back of the head, the recipient is definitely deep within riposte distance...
which is a term from the time when foil was a thrusting weapon.

<< A flick to back (rather than to the top of the shoulder) WILL wrap around
and hit the vertical plane (although you are trying to hit someone on the back
and not the back of the head...)>>

....which, of course, does not at all contradict my not about distance. If
there's enough foible to whip over shoulder or mask And hit flat on the back or
back of the head, the recipient is definitely deep within riposte distance...
which is a term from the time when foil was a thrusting weapon.