flick defense

[PisteOff]

When faced with opponents utilizing a flick, how does one defend? The flicks I've seen come usually from someone closing distance slowly in absence de fer. They can then launch a flick into several target lines (hard to parry).

Some things I've been mulling over in defense are:

a) attack into the prep when they pull back to flick
b) squat low as they attack and forget parry, counter-attack instead
c) retreat with large circle parry and riposte

Thoughts?

PisteOff
-- "ow" --

[angriff]

How about an opponent who ripostes by flicking to your back? I'd like to know how to counterparry a riposte like that...

[S. Fisher]

Flickers are terds!

[angrylemur]

OK...

In order to land a flick, the distance needs to be more or less perfect. If someone tries to flick you, you need to upset this distance somehow. This can be done by stepping back, or stepping in. Either one will work. As far as parrying goes, I think the best way to parry a whip is with a beat parry three. It takes all the forward momentum out of the blade, and it's less likely to backfire on you than just trying to close the line with a big 3 and leaving it there.

There are a lot of different beliefs on how to deal with whips. IMO, the best one is to just not be there when the whip comes. You really need to experiment and figure out what works for you, though. Some people are just good at stepping in, one second they are in perfect distance and the next they are literally brushing up against you. Others can back up out of distance well and set up an action of their own, and others can parry flicks well and land good ripostes. Like I said, experiment.

As far as ducking goes, I wouldn't recommend it. The flicker will usually just crank on it more and hit you anyways. Same thing with an esquive, I can still hit people who duck/esquive 75% or more of the time with my flicks. If you're going to counter attack, step in.

[LKS_Blade]

I find a duck or sidestep with a well timed counter thrust works well. Or, alternatly you can stop hit on the wrist and hope the ref dosent call a deliberate off target hit :P By the time the flick lands the timer has cut out... eventually your opponant will stop cos the flick is gtting them nowhere...

...Then again, you could just start epee and get a hit for it :P

[Mischa]

If someone steps in / out on my flick attack, I make a point of tightening my grip and landing the blade painfully flat on their arm.

[kini mini]

Originally posted by Mischa
If someone steps in / out on my flick attack, I make a point of tightening my grip and landing the blade painfully flat on their arm.

That's pathetic.

I'm not terribly good at defending against flicks, but then I haven't fenced seriously for very long so the people who hit me with flicks would probably hit me anyway. I usually prefer to step forward rather than back because I'm quite tall so I find that they can usually hit me when I step in - even I can usually hit people when they step into a flick .

[Craig]

PisteOff: Hey there. Nice to see you posting and using the resources here to help out your game.

Flick defense has been discussed to death several times on the board already. Try clicking on the "search posts" link at the top of the page and search for "flick defense" or just "flick" and you'll get a listing of threads in which this has been discussed. (The "Flicks" thread, while quite long, does contain a good deal of useful advice on how to defend against flick attacks.)

Of course, you'll have to wade through the "flicks suck" posts as well.

Cheers,
Craig

[rvergara]

based on the advices i got here i was able to defeat a really tall guy in my club who only does flicks. i used a simple balestra attack on the preparation. after a while he stopped flicking cause he was loosing points and lost his major attack.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

Originally posted by PisteOff
When faced with opponents utilizing a flick, how does one defend? The flicks I've seen come usually from someone closing distance slowly in absence de fer. They can then launch a flick into several target lines (hard to parry).

Some things I've been mulling over in defense are:

a) attack into the prep when they pull back to flick
b) squat low as they attack and forget parry, counter-attack instead
c) retreat with large circle parry and riposte

Thoughts?

PisteOff
-- "ow" --

There is no defence. Bow down and accept your defeat.

[haggis]

Of course 355 is right.

That's why the French, who generally hardly flick at all as a national style, are so useless .

Haggis

[vegan]

So,
My two fav's that work pretty well are . . .
Half advance with false counter attack . . . then step in - the flicker will most likely over commit (note that this requires a devious mind and good distance). You can also parry repost or try a distance repost (step in with false counter and step away so the flicker falls short). These are great, but require good distance and good timing, as well as a decent change in direction and good acceleration on the second actions.
Counter-repost: attack short (preferably, just a little bit short), time and target the attack to a space and line in which the opponent will repost with a flick for sure. Chose a distance and line for the repost and make a "beat 3" or a sabre head parry (and please, do it just like a sabrist would- don't show it before or do it slowly, just get your hand up as fast as you can!), then repost!
Good luck
B.

[135711]

three is a little low against the attack to the shoulder don't you think, it's a nice idea though, I've tried it several times. the flick is still new to foil, no-one yet has tried parry 5. even though the flick's not to the head, it needs parry 5, because it completely blocks the area around the shoulder. if you draw a circle around the target, and look at the diameter(s), then you'll knowwhere to put the blade. But, since it's not part of the foil repetroire, no one uses it! it stays in the realm of saber.


p.s. then you'd have to follow with a flick riposte, to the side, just like in saber

[vegan]

Hmmm.
Oh . . . opps!
Yeah, 135711. thats a parry 5 isn't it!!
sorry, been kinda a long week!
Cheers,
B.
Ps. one final idea against the flicky teen boys (sorry guys, its just that seems to be all some of you use!) start from on guard, if you know that they will flick, when fence is called, stand still . . . wait for it. When they get close, just extend toward target and close eyes- praying all the while that they will just miss!!!
Cheers,
B.

[wflaschka]

You can look at flicks sort of like sabre cuts. Use blocks (or blocking parries), 3's and 5's (but further out from the body than usual) so whipovers miss.

I used to try to break distance to confuse flickers -- but I was fencing such good flickers they weren't confused. A good flick is not very sensitive to distance. If you can make a flick hit flat by breaking distance, go for it. At higher levels, don't expect this to work.

There are 2 main situations for a flick: the attacker is chasing you down, or the attacker is riposting (after parry or after setting up a second intention attack).

If the attacker is chasing you down with a marching attack, you can do different things: [a] fall back and establish a line, [b] try to collapse their march by making things confusing as you retreat, [c] fleche past them, [d] wait, wait, wait, parry 3 riposte, [e] attack before they can start their march, [f] draw the attack by closing distance, then (when they terminate the march and attack) jumping back out of distance to safety.

These kinds of attacks are easy to kill, because there are almost never any surprises from the attacker; it's an unthinking attack. I mean, where else is it gonna land except where they're gesturing at as the gallop along? Just wait and parry, and then laugh.

For ripostes it's harder, because ripostes are opportunistic. This is where flicks shine -- they can arrive with zero delivery time. I try to treat them like normal ripostes: when receiving one, retreat and parry.

In the other flicks thread, someone mentioned it was possible to "drain the whip-energy" of a flick by making a slapping sort of interception parry. That sounded good to me, too. I'll have to try it.

I have a video of Romankov destroying several German flickers in the 80's. He used distance and a parry riposte. As soon as I saw him do it, I knew it could be done, and it was demystified for me.

[darius]

These kinds of attacks are easy to kill, because there are almost never any surprises from the attacker; it's an unthinking attack. I mean, where else is it gonna land except where they're gesturing at as the gallop along? Just wait and parry, and then laugh.

...only to find nothing except your opponent's light, since [h/sh]e opportunistically changed lines to develop into a straight attack to the chest, or a horizontal flick to the flank.

For every action, there is a counteraction. One flick ponies are easy to destroy, but those who are adept at a quick line change are nasty beasts indeed!

darius

[wflaschka]

opportunistically changed lines to develop into a straight attack to the chest, or a horizontal flick to the flank

Thus the whirlygig of Tactics brings in his revenges.

I completely concur that there is never one story for a given action. And I like the phrase "one flick pony," that's exactly what I was trying to convey.

When I feel unoriginal, I do marching attacks indicating the chest as the target. If I'm parried, I'm still ready with a second counter riposte to the shoulder. Sometimes I'll just disengage and extend a straight highline attack, for an easy hit.

One notion in tactics is to get the opponent to commit / expose / activate their defensive strategy early. This is why feints must feel threatening -- if threatened, the opponent will move their hand out of line, opening them up. If the opponent does show their parry early, you have time to change lines.

This can be used to the defender's advantage. I sometimes tell students to show an early parry against long marches; it becomes a sort of invitation for a disengage, and the student is ready for the new-line attack.

The antidote to getting opened up early is to train so that you have last-minute parries. With a calm hand and good distance, it is possible to take parries only when it counts, when the opponent has committed to an attack.

[135711]

then you must have read, "Flick to the Flank" by sTRip hOg. I also salute the Strip Hog. I have a question, it's been bothering me, from time to time I notice the term 'original' or sometimes that someone is 'copying' a style or a video or something from 'someone else" etc. I think it's sort of interesting yet mystifying. If I see a fencer has done a superb job using a fleche attack for example, I'm going to go home and practice my fleche attacks. What say you sir!



'an eye for an eye and the world will go blind'
how true.

[wflaschka]

For myself, fwiw, I have a good video library (and lend it to students) because I like to crib from other fencers. I'm in Mississippi, not a mecca for fencing, and the fencers here have a very narrow view of fencing.

The videos have helped students understand distance, footwork, energy. It's a good antidote for not having high-caliber fencers around. Tournaments in other states have enlightened them even more.

Fencing doesn't happen in a vacuum. Standing on the shoulders of giants, &etc. Good fencers are good because they have best-practice habits and tactics; it makes sense to learn from them.

When I say something like, "That fricking, fracking, copycat braindead fencer..." it's usually because they knocked me out of a tournament. And my tirades last only 5 minutes.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally posted by Mischa
If someone steps in / out on my flick attack, I make a point of tightening my grip and landing the blade painfully flat on their arm.

Now, if this not vindictive fencing, then what is?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson