Rebuttals to Anti-French jokes

[pkt]

Subject: Anti-French sentiments in the US


I apologise that this is a bit long and a bit of a rant.

But I hope you'll read it all.



PK



--)----------





The anti - French sayings only go to show one thing:

The Americans have forgotten about history when they are in the wrong.

1. They've forgotten that it was the French who help the colonists beat the British back in 1776. The reminder: The green statue in the harbour off Manhattan called the Statue of Liberty. Without the French's help there might not have been a US of A.

2. They've forgotten that USA did not join WWI until the war was in its 3rd year. The Austro-Hungarian empire started WWI by crushing Serbia where Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated on 1914 Jun 28. USA troops did not arrive in Europe till 1917.

3. They've forgotten that USA did not join WWII until Japan attacked Pearl Harbour on 1941 Dec. 7. The Japanese attacked China in 1937, that's 4 years before USA joined the fight in Asia. Germany invaded Poland in 1939 Sept. 1, that was 2 years before USA joined the fight in Europe.

It is not just the French who are against the current war in Iraq, it is the majority of the world that is against it. Why are the American not picking on the Germans who are standing beside the French in their opposition against the attack on Iraq. Because it's not nice to say bad things about the country that was the aggressor and the loser in the last TWO World Wars.

With the exception of a handful of countries, those countries that are on the side with the US, UK, Australia who are actually contributing to the war effort, all the other of the 50 who are not contributing are receiving aid, yes, being bought by the US.

--)-----------

Then there's Senator Byrd's speech to the Senate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Mar19.html

Washington Post
Thursday, March 20, 2003; Page A20

Byrd Denounces War Against Iraq, Saying It Will Hurt U.S. Image

The oldest member of the U.S. Congress rose in a nearly empty Senate chamber yesterday to denounce as misguided President Bush's march to war with Iraq.

"Today I weep for my country," Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) said. "No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. . . . Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.

"We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance," Byrd said. "After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe."

Byrd, who has been a leading foe on Capitol Hill of war with Iraq, spoke about four hours before Bush's deadline for Saddam Hussein to leave Iraq or face a U.S.-led invasion.

"The case this administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence," Byrd said.

Despite administration suggestions to the contrary, Byrd said, "There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11."

As the 85-year-old senator concluded his remarks, a number of people in the visitor's gallery rose and applauded before they were admonished to be quiet.

The senator said: "We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason. This is a war of choice."

Byrd said that instead of negotiating, Washington demanded obedience or threatened recrimination. "Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves."

He said many questions about the looming war were unanswered.

"A pall has fallen over the Senate chamber," Byrd said. "We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq."

Reuters

--)----------


Thought you'd like to hear the other side of the France vs USA story. It is actually USA against the World.


PK

----- Original Message -----


Saying Chips
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"My favorite bumper sticker in Washington D.C. right now is the one that says '

First Iraq, then France.'" - Tom Brokaw

[...then Germany, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and oh yes, Canada. People are saying the relationship between the US and Canada won't improve till there's a regime change in Canada. But the US will let Zimbawe be. - PK]

"The French announced today that they would not help us remove Saddam from Iraq.

Well Duh! They didn't even help us remove Hitler from France." - Jay Leno

[D'oh, the French sure helped the US defeat the British... - PK]

"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat.

Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." - Dave Letterman

[Yeah, the US has the receipts of all the ingredients for 'the weapons of mass destruction' that Saddam bought from the US.

Oh, don't forget who sold Saddam the helicopters that Saddam used to gas the Kurds in 1987. – PK]


Why are all the highways in France lined with trees?

So the Germans can march in the shade!!!

[They sure look better than all the US Hwys lined with bill boards. - PK]

"France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals.

France is miserable because it is filled with Frenchmen, and

Frenchmen are miserable because they live in France".

- Mark Twain

[I wonder why then all these Americans travel year in year out to France?

For goodness sakes, some even live in France!!?? - PK]

Only thing worse than a Frenchman is a Frenchman who lives in Canada.
-Ted Nugent

[Then there are the Acadians who live in Louisiana... - PK]

War without France would be like ... uh ... World War II

[War without the USA would be like WWI, WWII, Bosnia, etc. - PK]

What do you call 100,000 Frenchmen with their hands up?

The Army.

[Or it could be the Germans Wehrmacht in Russia or the Americans in their hasty retreat from Saigon... - PK]

Q. How do you stop a French Tank?

A. Shoot the guy pushing.

[Remember 'Black Hawk Down'? The mighty US amred forces with their wizz bang high tech armaments couldn't even defeat a mere 'warlord' in backward Africa! - PK]


The best French bashing line heard over the last week is:

"We can count on the French to be there when they need us

[D'oh, the French sure helped the US defeat the British in 1776...

Were the US in 1914 in Europe?

Were they in China in 1937?

Were they in Europe in 1939?

Were they in Bosnia recently?

Oh, where was President Regean when both Congress and Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Bill in a record 24 hours only to have President Regean threaten to kill the bill thus ensuring its demise because he agreed with the big business lobby that sanction against Iraq would be bad for American business.

Where was President George Bush senior when the Kurds rose up to overthrow Saddam as President Bush Senior had suggested?

Where was President George Bush Senior when Saddam deployed his armed forces to crush the Kurds with tanks and helicopters which the US sold to him in contravention to the ceasefire agreement signed after the First Gulf War?

Didn't the US ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci, say something similar this past week of March 2003? "If Canada was under attack the US will be there." Yeah, see the above paragraph. Besides, Canada would not do anything to cause anyone other than the US to attack us- PK]


---

[D'Artagnan1673]

In reference to Black Hawk down, I consider 20 deaths to 1,000 deaths to be a victory. Lets see, thats 1 American killed for every 50 Somali Militiamen. Sounds like a victory to me.

Vietnam. With the Cold War in full effect, our armed forces had their hands tied to avoid escalating to nuclear war with Russia.

I can't defend our not helping the Kurds in the post cease-fire slaughter that ensued, nor can I defend President Clinton's lack of action in the locations referrenced in this post.

As he left office, George Washington had a bit of advice for our nation. He said that we should avoid entangling allinances with the Europeans. They are always fighting each other. Thats where we were in 1914 & 1939. We were there in small number in 1937. Ever heard of Chennault Air Force base in Lousiana? Claire Lee Chennault was there. Maybe we should have left Europe to destroy themselves. We certainly haven't gotten any gratitude.

Yes, the French aided our independance, but we still bailed them out of WWI & WWII. 56,000 Americans lost their lives defending the French's right to sit around a cafe' and drink coffee and arrogantly hate us. Now you throw the American Revolution back in our face? How many Frenchmen lost their lives defending our freedom?

I don't think my country is perfect, nor do I agree with the immoral aspects of our culture. I do however stand by our freedoms and our way of life. God Bless America.

[pkt]

Was it just the French that the US armed forces went to the aid of in WWII?
No. I'll let you finish the answer to my question.

If you read the subtext of history Churchill wanted the US to go in the war and the Japanese stupidly saved him a lot of bother. Remember what Admiral Yamamotos said to his colleagues before the Japanese Imperial Army launched the attack on Pearl Harbour? Pres. Roosevelt wanted in too had not been the politics in the US before Pearl Harbour.

The way most American use "God bless America" is reminiscent of what I saw in some of the folk concerts: the militant feminists would lift their shirts and flashed their brests to one and all.

i.e. they are used as an assault weapon.

e.g. in the season-opener baseball game in Toronto, the powers that be decided to play 'God Bless America after the 7th inning. That, to a lot of Canadians, is an assault on the Canadian sensibilities.

e.g. Two days ago, a Canadian family went shopping in I think Blaine, WA. When they returned to their parked mini-van, some Yahoo had stuck a piece of printed paper under the windshield wipers. They were told to go back to Canada. Why? Because of Canada's Federal government's stance on non-particiaption in the war in Iraq WITHOUT UN sanction.

e.g. A Canadian man made a successful bid for an item on e-bay. The seller refused to send the item to Canada for the same reason.

I'll stop here.

PK

[Tsu-La]

As a person who is completely against the war in Iraq and has not agreed with more than half of what our president has said since elected, it is also a little sickening to me that you can make such a gross generalization on all US citizens.

You seem to be saying that you can judge all of us according to the actions of a few (including Bush, whom we did not all vote for). You are also being very unfair in saying, that "all" us americans hate the french, canadians, et all. who are against the war, when you are make that same generalization yourself (except anti-american)!

I'm not going to argue about whether the united states was in the right or in the wrong in all these militaristic situations, but I will say that for myself, and for most of the people I know, *I* know that when I meet a German that he's not automatically anti-jewish, when I meet a muslim that doesn't mean he wants to blow me up, when I meet a frenchman that he's not always going to be anti-war, and when I meet a US citizen that he will not always be pro-war.

All countries have their faults, people shouldn't have to pay the price for decisions made for them.

[edew]

I didn't read PK's posts as being an attack at all Americans. I'm certainly not offended nor disappointed with his posts.

PK's posts on this thread is laser sharp: a rebuttal to those who make unnecessary and unwarranted anti-french jokes.

Truth be told about WWII, the US didn't get into the war when it was CLEAR that Hitler and Germany was doing things we only suspect Hussein may one day do. The US didn't get into the war because there were some members of congress and possibly within the administration's cabinet who didn't particularly dislike Hitler and his Nazi ideals. There was a Nazi following in the US (and, to a degree, this following is still around) during the time of the war and the US was sitting on the side to see which way the wind was blowing.

The US then was not the superpower of now, so it couldn't really afford to choose the wrong (i.e., the losing) side. The US got lucky with Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor and the immediate declaration of war by Germany against the US several days after the bombing. Then, there was no issue: we had to fight against Germany and Japan (we'll leave L'il Italy out of the discussion).

France, of course, has had a long legacy of not doing well in battles, possibly starting with events in the mid-1300s or even earlier. They had to have a peasant girl with psychotic dreams to save the 4$$ at the end of the Hundred Years' War. Then there was Napoleon and his Waterloo. The revolution, and those mouseketeers.

France is not a fighter, but I don't consider that to be a negative asset. Being diplomatic, being suave, being a lover, I think, is better than being a brute, a fighter, an arrogant bruiser. To the world at the moment, the US is the latter and not nearly the former.

So PK, go ahead and keep on posting as you wish. You won't hear a disparaging word from me, at least.

[Tsu-La]

Now that I've read a reply made to a different thread by PKT, stating that he wasn't meaning anything against the citizens, alright, I'm sorry I took offense. You might want to make that clear next time you post something like that though, unless you want an angry liberal american, probably fighting the same cause as you, breathing down your neck like me. I'll leave it up there.

[pkt]

Tsu-La,

If you had read any of my postings in the other threads you'd have noticed that time and again I have pointedly made the distinction between the POTUS/US governemnt and the American people. I have repeatedly pointed others to read Sen. Byrd's speech in the Senate as reported by the Washington Post. So I know there ARE people in the US legislature who have the balls to stand up and tell Dubya, "With all due respects, sir, you're wrong."

I am strongly against tarring all with the same brush stroke.

Please read the thread called "Warmonger" or "Al-Jazeera ..."

I sometimes play the 'devil's advocate' or agent provocateur to get the discussion going: there'd be no discussion if we all agree, right?

Look at this view expressed by Jack Fairweather of the Daily Telegraph, a rightist UK paper, read the clear distaste the British officer had for the US Special Forces rangers. It is not so much the fact that they resent the help, it is the subtext that the US SFR gave to the Brits, as well as to the rest of the world:
"We're here to help because you can't be doing this right."

I appreciate the good intentions, but, damn it, Canadians are full of good intentions too, but Cdns don't proselytise.

Your tag sound Chinese, to put the US SFR's MO (modus operandi) is that they don't respect the other people 'face'.

PK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...%2Fwjack02.xml

Fruit dumplings play crucial role
By Jack Fairweather in Gul Ashab outside Basra
(Filed: 02/04/2003)


The three US special forces rangers dismounted from their vehicle wearing identical shades and un-reassuring smiles. "Hello, we're to offer you our services," said one, as he signalled to one of his men to provide covering fire from a heavy machinegun on the roof of his jeep.

"We're trilingual arms and explosives experts with full air support and medical assistance at your disposal, sir. We've come to debrief the local population to provide you with useful intelligence."

"Right you are," said the officer from A squadron, Queen's Dragoon Guards outside Gul Ashab. The village is under British control following a sweeping manoeuvre on Monday which took the squadron to the outskirts of Basra.

"We've got some special techniques to motivate them into helping you," said the special forces man.

"You know what?" said the British officer, "I don't think that will be strictly necessary."

Yesterday the British military's equivalent of meals on wheels rolled into Gul Ashab less than 24 hours after its liberation to scenes that would suggest the hearts and minds of Iraqis in and around Basra have already been won over.

As the American special forces unit disappeared in a puff of smoke, British soldiers drove through the village handing out food from their ration packs to the villagers who had come on to the streets to welcome them.

One man, Abdullah, had walked five miles from another village with his daughter to offer a message from his community: "Salaam to the British."

He picked up a portion of fruit dumplings with custard and sniffed at it joyously. "I don't think he knows quite what it contains," said Capt Rachel Thompson, attached to the unit.

"It's not much, we know, but after they've been risking their necks to tell us where Iraqi tanks are located in the area the lads feel we owe them something. I just hope the relief convoy comes in the next couple of days."

From the appearance of the population the arrival of aid could not come too soon.

Although the villagers had dressed in gaily-coloured smocks to greet the troops, many appeared half-starved. They had rags around their feet because, they said, Iraqi militia took their shoes weeks ago to stop them fleeing.

"The militia know we'd run to their houses to get their food and water," said one Iraqi, pointing to the skyline where the villas of rich Ba'ath Party members could be seen, an indication of the wealth gap in Saddam's Iraq.

"Now it is the militia who are running with their food and water straight to Basra," said the man with a chuckle as he leant against his mud hut.

"In Gul Ashab we have seen every day how much hurt Saddam has done and that is why we are pleased to see the British," said Rhiad, the local doctor. "We know you have come to help us."

1 April 2003: 'All clear. Would the tanks care to join us?'
28 March 2003: Basra anger rises amid the fear

© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003.

[135711]

Yes, we should all post away. PKT is rather strident about things, though and I makes it difficult to see his point of view. However, PKT's point of view seems to be very strong, whatever it is. PKT seems to take the side of any group or person whom PKT feels is being unjustly criticized. However, I would wonder if there was ever a criticism implied by anything anyone has said on the board, not of a nation or race or creed. Certainly the mere mention of another persons country or background shouldn't be construed or twisted to make it appear as though someone were criticizing an entire group of people? If you feel criticized, does it really mean that someone was trying to criticize you? I don't think so. In our discussion panels so far, we've all contributed to the discussions. They have ranged in politcal scope to include various nations and religions. It is part of our free speech that we are able to write on these topics with little censorship. It's only when we provoke one-another or bait one-another through mud-slinging, that we run into trouble. So, now, I'm going to stick up for Joan of Arc. How dare you call her psychotic! She was 14 years old and wanted to be a soldier. She had dreams that were the product of absorbing information from her environment. Dreams merely release the information in such a way that it tells the dreamer of their environment and the way the dreamer processes based on the experiences previously set in the mind. She had the fortune to be able to have dreams that were necessary and sensible, and that they were able to be made sence of. For her troubles she was executed as a traitor by the religious authorities of the day. What a traitor, she went and fought for France. There's a large group of people in the United States with French heritage. American people are from all over the world. Canada is from all over the world. The Canadian people are originally french and english, and before Canada was Canada, it was indiginous Indian.

btw: that article is very moving. the stress of writing does something. personally, i haven't drawn anything in about 5 days or more, i found it very tiring, in light of the recent events. bye for now, and take care pkt! -

[achilleus]

Originally posted by edew
PK's posts on this thread is laser sharp: a rebuttal to those who make unnecessary and unwarranted anti-french jokes.

I'm against the war, but having been to France on numerous occasions, I can honestly say that there is no such thing as 'unnecessary and unwarranted anit-french jokes.'

Same goes for anti-canadian jokes, except I haven't been to Canada as much.

[135711]

Thank you for an astute observation. We said "french fries" t hat, apparently was an anti-french joke!

Are you ready?
not reely!!

[pkt]

Eric,

Thank you for your astute defence on my behalf. It's these kind of attack and riposte that we like so much.

I agree with 135711, I take issue with you besmirching St. Joan of Arc. The French issued a stamp to commemorate her heroism. And of course the Vatican sainted her...

The name of my alma mater's name is St. Joan of Arc School!!! [It was meant to be a girls' school, but unfortunately the location was beside the all-girl Sacred Heart Canossian College, so they turned it into an all-boys school instead...]

I've attached a copy of the stamp for you.

Hollywood saw fit to do the story of Joan of Arc at least 2 times in 1999 alone. I saw these 2. Of these I like the one with Leelee Sobieski better. She's a lot more passionate than the other girl.

The first Joan of Arc movie was shot in, I couldn't believe this: 1895 ! The second in 1899!

There are a total of 12 movies with the same theme. Now which story you know of was remade that many times?

In Canada, it used to be 'Newfie' jokes that were popular. In this age of PC, I don't know anymore.

Joan of Arc was sold out by the dauphine in order to - if I remember correctly - to cement the future of France, to form an alliance with the hated English.

Again, if one look at the bigger picture, the Dauphine did the right thing for France. Unfortunately, Joan's usefulness expired. She was in fact in the way of the future of France.

I know this sounds very Machiavellian, but, that's the life of a politician. Look at what they did to Winston Churchill afer WWII. Same story. Lucky for him there was no need to put him on the stake.

Here's a report of anti-Americanism in Europe from a Canadian perspective. the reporter is in Brussels. CanWest owns a cross-Canada chain of news papers as well as a national TV channel Global, the weakest of the Big 3 Cdn national TV channels.

http://www.canada.com/national/featu...A-376BBBB2DB39

Just as we condemn those who produced anti-French jokes, so do the French condemn those who defaced the WWII memorial to the Commonwealth soldiers in the French coastal town of Etaples.

This goes to show that the attack on Iraq split the US from her allies while at the same time uniting the whole Moslem world, something the League of Arab nations failed to do.

PK

[pkt]

oops,

forgot to attach the stamp of Jeanne d'Arc.

PK

[edew]

Hey, I like Joan of Arc. I'm very inspired by her, to a degree. I've read Mark Twain's wonderful story on Joan of Arc, and I've read a biography of her by another author. And I've read several books on that era of European history. So, I'm quite infatuated with her and her era.

But still, if you read the accounts of what she did and how she did them, it's quite probable that she was psychotic. People hearing voices and such are generally psychotic. Of course, religious people sometimes mistake psychosis for divine intervention. Oh well. The normal and medical term for being able to speak with a "god" or speak with an "angel" is psychosis.

[pkt]

Eric,

If you had made yourself clear the first time around, 135711 would not be on your case.



PK

[Tsu-La]

Yes, like I said I read your other posts. That day I was a bit disgusted with all the finger pointing that has been going around here (US) lately. On a different subject (well, not really) WTH is up with "Freedom fries" (aka french fries) "freedom toast" (french toast) and all that crud, anyways? I saw that they had changed the menu to that at a place I go a lot to eat, and needless to say, it put me off.

By the way, my tag is Cherokee. Close.

US SFR's MO (modus operandi) .

What is that? I'm sorry...

[Mischa]

Why aren't there any fireworks at Eurodisney?







Cause every time they set them off, the French try to surrender!!

[sallearmourer]

Personal I would like to see us pull all our troops out of Europe and Bosina and said the H@LL with all of Europe. France and Germany wouldn't clean up the mess in there own backyard. They were willing to let the ethic killing go on in the former Yugoslavia. We stood between them and the former USSR for years. We rebuilted all of Europe after WW II have we been repay for those loans we made to France and other countires. H@ll no except for Finland.


Tim

[civiltech]

Until the US starts serving "french fries" again, I refuse to watch "American Pie."

p.s.-they don't even call it french toast or french fries in France. I would assume anybody over there who even knows about this fiasco is a little bit bewildered.

[civiltech]

I don't understand curious georges post. what happened?


There was a post here a minute ago with code listed, and now it's gone. Absolutely bizarre.....

[Mischa]

What are you talking about?