Rebuttals to Anti-French jokes

[Inquartata]

That viewpoint rather reminds me of the theories by which common criminals ought to be absolved of guilt ( or at least punishment ) because they were abused as kids or because "society is to blame".

One can say that the US has by certain of its actions established a global climate which fosters hatred and resentment among some ignorant "downtrodden" people. But to take that climate as itself a valid excuse for violent behaviour against the uninvolved is the sort of cop-out which the irrational always seem to find to justify themselves. It's no different than the "outcast" or bullied kids who shoot up their schools. The bullies actions may have been reprehensible, but they in no way mitigate the retaliatory overreactions. And the efforts of the schools to prevent Columbine-like massacres are not branded as arrogant attempts to establish a "Pax Scholastica", are they?

[pkt]

Originally posted by Inquartata
That viewpoint rather reminds me of the theories by which common criminals ought to be absolved of guilt ( or at least punishment ) because they were abused as kids or because "society is to blame".

One can say that the US has by certain of its actions established a global climate which fosters hatred and resentment among some ignorant "downtrodden" people. But to take that climate as itself a valid excuse for violent behaviour against the uninvolved is the sort of cop-out which the irrational always seem to find to justify themselves. It's no different than the "outcast" or bullied kids who shoot up their schools. The bullies actions may have been reprehensible, but they in no way mitigate the retaliatory overreactions. And the efforts of the schools to prevent Columbine-like massacres are not branded as arrogant attempts to establish a "Pax Scholastica", are they?

This is the entry in Merriam-Webster.

"Main Entry: PAX
Pronunciation: 'paks, 'päks
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin, from Latin, peace -- more at PEACE
Date: 14th century
1 : a tablet decorated with a sacred figure (as of Christ) and sometimes ceremonially kissed by participants at mass
2 : the kiss of peace in the Mass
3 : PEACE; especially capitalized : a period of general stability in international affairs under the influence of a dominant military power -- usually used in combination with a latinized name <Pax Americana> "

So in other words, In4 has, like FP and Tsu-la and others before her misinterpreted my written words because she either missed the meaning of the words I used, or missed what I wrote totally.

I have to agree w/ axelbcorlu's post:
"As a matter of fact, the U.S. DID "start" a good deal of things around the world, mostly involving hostile takeovers, creation and support of puppet dictatorial regimes, political murders, etc ad nauseam. This "starting" something idea in international politics does not make much sense, but you do indeed harvest, or reap what was sown by the same hand. Just ask the people of Chile, whose democratically elected government was toppled by the U.S., replaced by a dictator (General Pinochet) who murdered thousands and kept his iron fist on the country for decades. Ask the people of Nicaragua. Ask the people of Panama, where an-ex CIA agent took over the country and became a dictator. Oh yes, the U.S., DID "start" a good deal of things indeed."



BTW, axelbcorlu failed to mention the last US fumbled attempt at regime change: the one last year in Venezuela. Whoever it was who financed/ordered the regime change - US Secretary of State Colin Powell of course categorically denied that the attempt has anything to do with the US. Of course. The CBC did a documentary on how the attempt came about - private TV stations crowded out the sole government channel - Channel 8 - and spread all kinds of rumour against the democratically elected President Chavez. The US recognised the coup's leader as the new President. 48 hour later, he's gone and President Chevaz reclaimed his legitimate post as President of the Republic.

http://www.observer.co.uk/internatio...688071,00.html

Venezuela coup linked to Bush team

Specialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez

Observer Worldview

Ed Vulliamy in New York
Sunday April 21, 2002

"Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success. "



IMHO, it was the result of this failed attempt at repeating the coup in Chile that the POTUS came to the conclusion that "Geez! If one wants anything doen properly one has to do it oneself."


It is actions like this that seperates the US from the last time when it was PAX Britannica, when more than half the atlas was coloured pink and the Brits could proudly boast that theirs was the Empire where the sun never sets. Alas... no more.



In4, whoever else it was - Daceg? you who are in SE Texas whose avatar is the person with the aviator glasses - who asked me to show him how the rest of the World sees Americans.
Here's a fairly good article in the Observer last year written by Paul Kennedy who is
"Paul Kennedy CBE [=Commander of the British Empire, I believe. In other words, to you and I it is 'Sir Paul' - PK], Professor of History and Director of International Security Studies at Yale University, is the author of The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers."

"Has the US lost its way?
Does everybody hate America? Maybe the world is just concerned at the lack of visionary leadership from such a powerful nation"

http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/...661105,00.html



Almost forgot, with the latest developments:
POTUS Dubya told Syria that 'Syria will cooperate.' and the shutting down of the pipeline that brings Iraqi oil to Syria...
I came to the conclusion that what Dubya and his gang are trying to achieve - yes, the ulterior motivce - was to execute what Sun Tse - he who wrote 'The Art of War' 2,500 years ago and still read by those who is in the biz of wars military and coporate - who wrote in the preface to his book the elementary principle of 'Killing one to warn hundreds'. A principle pracised by the Mongols on their wy to Europe.

Kill off Saddam and the whole Arab world quiver:

Saudi Arabia, a country where women are not allowed to drive, the Saudi people have no vote, among many other undemocratic practices, are initiating new democratic laws. [Hmmm I wonder why the timing???]

Syria's foreign Minister is protesting vehemently that Syria do not have WoMD... they are not harbouring any of Saddam's cohorts...the border to Iraq is closed FOR GOOD till further notice. i.e. till the Americans say so.

I believe that Dubya and his gang may be out to undo the haphazard partitioning of the Middle East as a result of the fall of the Ottoman Empire - yes, the Ottoman Empire.

Look at a map of the Middle East and you'll see how neatly the boundaries are. There was not consideration for the people living there. If there had been more thoughts put into the drawing up of the boundaries at the beginning of the 20th century, the Middle East might not be the powder keg that it is.

If that IS the ulterior motive of the Dubya gang. Good for them. I think the world would only wish they could do it under the UN aegis. That'd have make the good intentions legit.

OTOH, we saw this morning that Dubya has showed ushis real agenda:
Win the war and get re-elected.
a la Maggie Thatcher after the Falkland War.

Bush Senior tried but failed to take into consideration the economic front. Hence Dubya's emphasis on economic moves this morning.

So, expect more deficit financing.

The cost of the attack on Iraq is temporarily pegged at USD40 billion.

This does not include the cost of rebuilding Iraq.
This does not include BRINGING THE TROOPS HOME.

As I asked my American friends earlier:
Are you guys ready to pay more taxes? More and much, much more?

Remember what I wrote about one of the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire: the incessant years of wars costed the hemmoraging of the treasury...

I hope I'm wrong.

But, if I am right, really, I wish most sincerely, from the bottom of my heart,
"God bless America".

Us Canadians have been there with the huge deficits... civiltech can vouch for that.

PK

[axelbcorlu]

we need to make a distinction between "justifying" and "explaining." i am not justifying the killing of people, but explaining it. however, when an argument with "we didn't start it" is made (and there's a reason i said it doesn't make sense in the larger scheme of things), the exact opposite is easily proven, especially in this case...

thus, the criminal example does not really apply. you can explain (and aim to change) the social conditions that create crime, but that does not justify it. but you don't go around changing the law according to your interests and start a killing spree.

no empire lasts forever. what will this one leave behind when it falls? the romans/byzantines left systematized law, infrastructure that lasted millennia; the chinese left a vast cultural heritage; what will be the american heritage? "freedom" is one item if it's supporter is credible in the eyes of the world. otherwise, the heritage is exploitation, consumerism and pear shaped people running around in shopping malls, and an arrogant imperialism. i hope the former part wins out eventually, with the tiny idea of "freedom," but i'm not quite optimistic about it.

[pkt]

axelbcorlu

'Never underestimate your power to change yourself;
never overestimate your power to change others."
~ H. Jackson Brown Jr.

Shall we say the US is guilty of the latter?

Your post shows you to be able to see both sides of the coin, a most encouragible trait as long as you don't argue for the third hand...

PK

[Inquartata]

Heh, a politician who wants to be reelected, who would ever have expected that?

But I see that some of us have still not managed to resist the temptation of reductionism---to attribute any given policy to one simple ( and usually "ulterior" ) motive. In this case, the one which posits that the whole Iraqi business was designed to get Bush reelected.

If that were really a significant factor, I don't think that we would have seen the war begun and concluded so early in the election cycle. That, after all, was the mistake Bush the Elder made: allowing too much time between the conclusion of the Gulf War and the election for his war-induced popularity ratings to dwindle away. Even if the present President had not learned the lesson ---and by all accounts he is politically very shrewd, even if his perspicacity in other areas is in some doubt---certainly his staff will be only too aware of it. NEXT spring would have made much more sense reelection-wise.

But there is no convincing some critics. Explode one myth and another rises to take its place.

[Jupiter]

Hi, I like Joan of Arc, I feel she, and many others are merely victims of governments - I understand that LOGICally, you may want to classify her as psychotic, because historically, it is said that she "heard voices"..... only an expert though, can tell us more about that. Don't worry about it though, she's unable to tell us more about them enough to classify where she was at the time. It would stand to reason then, that anyone, a prophet or seer would fall into the same category, and let's not go there, but almost all religious leaders have stated that they have had either visions or other mystic experiences. Rather than brush them all aside as being mere fantasy, there may be an element of truth to what these people were experiencing. I would have to agree that PKT is smart and has a lot of insight, but heavens to mergatroy, if he were any 'stronger' I think I'd have to take a tranquillizer before reading his posts. The sheer metal- ness of it all, the full body metal-ness of it all.

see you around.

[Jupiter]

aolfe: Pkt makes you smile? are you serious? reading PKT is like fencing a bout with a stanford foilist, it's a horribly taxing experience. It's like trying to attend to a rhino. But with the America thing, I'll tell you what I wanted: first I wanted everyone to move to America and we'd all have a gigantic mixing bowl; then i decided that it's such a mess, why don't we all emigrate back to our origins and return the land to the indians. Btw, someone in my family was indian - we think.

[pkt]

Hey, Jupiter,

perhaps even the 'First Nations' people should go back to where they came from across the Alaskan land bridge too...

I sense a tinge of jealousy in your questioning my ablity to make Aoife smile with my posting.

Remember Aoife just turned 16... this is not a put-down, it's a statement of fact...


"reading PKT is like fencing a bout with a stanford foilist, it's a horribly taxing experience."

As D'Art pointed out, Jupiter, when you write 'one lump' postings it's VERy taxing to read. Imagine talking the way you write.

OK< let me rephrase that last bit.

Write like you talk.

[I hope you don't talk like those cheap ads where they try to squeeze in as much info in 15 seconds as possible and the announcer is talking 500 words a minute... or 125 words in the 15 seconds.]

Look at how the various news anchors read the news.

You can hear the paragraphs and the punctuations...

PK

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally posted by sallearmourer
Personal I would like to see us pull all our troops out of Europe and Bosina and said the H@LL with all of Europe. France and Germany wouldn't clean up the mess in there own backyard. They were willing to let the ethic killing go on in the former Yugoslavia. We stood between them and the former USSR for years. We rebuilted all of Europe after WW II have we been repay for those loans we made to France and other countires. H@ll no except for Finland.


Tim

Pray, do tell: why just Finland? Actually, that is one of the few countries who never has been part of the warsaw pact, *and* never has hosted US. troops, so withdrawing from all of Europe except Finland would be a bit difficult. However, I don´t think there will be a pullback anytime soon - it would mean that a generation of US. officers would feel that they lack an easy opportunity for a foreign stint, hampering their promotion chances. They would put up a stink.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Philistine]

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson
Hi!



Pray, do tell: why just Finland?
{snip}

I assume his point was that Finland was the only country to pay back in full the war loans the U.S. made to it in WW1.


--Philistine

[pkt]

How long did the Finns take to pay it all back?

PK

[Philistine]

Originally posted by pkt
How long did the Finns take to pay it all back?

PK

Sometime before the US entry into WWII, IIRC. There was a law passed (in 1940??) in the US which forbid making loans to belligerants if their loans from WW1 had not been paid. Finland was the only country which qualified for aid under that act.

--Philistine

[pkt]

Originally posted by Philistine
Sometime before the US entry into WWII, IIRC. There was a law passed (in 1940??) in the US which forbid making loans to belligerants if their loans from WW1 had not been paid. Finland was the only country which qualified for aid under that act.

--Philistine

The law might have been that, the US nevertheless did give loans in money and materiele to some of the combatants: Britain, China and of course the USSR. Am I right?

PK

[Philistine]

Originally posted by pkt
The law might have been that, the US nevertheless did give loans in money and materiele to some of the combatants: Britain, China and of course the USSR. Am I right?

PK

Yes. Lend-Lease act was passed in early 1941, changing the law. this site gives a nice description of how lend-lease came into effect.

--Philistine