Regulation USFA uniforms

[omaoligain]

Hey, I was on this web page :
http://ontargetfencing.com/nodusfa.html
and this sentence got my attention:
"Regulation USFA/FIE fencing uniforms are required for all competitions. This includes fencing plastron, jacket, knickers (not sweats or baseball pants), glove, socks that cover the shins, and breast protectors for females."

It was my understanding that USFA rules regarding knickers ONLY state that they must be long enough to "fasten below the knee."

Other than that they may be any fabric and any color...so long as the socks are long enough to cover all skin below them, and the jacket overlaps by at least ten centimeters.

So is it acceptable that this division requires "regulation USFA/FIE" knickers, "not sweats or baseball pants?"

[edew]

The pants and the jacket must overlap each other by 10cm. Most baseball pants won't do that. There should also not be any front pockets where a blade may enter and not easily exit without tearing the wearer a new hole somewhere. Thus, most sweat pants won't meet this criteria.

Fencing pants must not have seams or any other construction that might snag a blade. Since most pants have front pockets, that excludes virtually all pants. The 10cm overlap excludes most other pants, including the popular hip huggers that most women wear.

[oiuyt]

Then there's the requirement that all clothing be made of "sufficiently robust" material. Sweatpants are NOT robust.

-B :)

[pkt]

Look at the thread I started called
"Why you should always wear 800 N clothing"
then you'll know why.

As far as the socks are concerned, I was watching one of the Finals in the Montreal Olympics in 76 and the President of FIE actually got up off his chair to approach the President de Jury and TOLD him to ask the fencer whose knee sock had fallen down to pull up his sock!!!

I guess this is all the more important in epee where the leg is part of the target...

PK

[achilleus]

Originally posted by pkt
Look at the thread I started called
"Why you should always wear 800 N clothing"
then you'll know why.

PK

An important distinction to make is that FIE clothing is the safest when used with FIE blades, which are suppossed to break flat.

I remember reading a study a while back about a ballistics done in the US on this subject. FIE test materials using a rather thick cone to apporximate the strength of the fabric vs. a broken FIE blade.

When a blade tears and leaves a jagged edge, FIE clothing (they were using kevlar stuff at the time) isn't the safest material. The material that had the best resistance to a jagged blade was the cotton duck that they use to make the cheap US jackets in.

I don't have the study, it is rather old (94?), but it makes sense. Also, some countries (US, France for sure) don't require 800N clothing.

That said, I love and always wear my FIE uniform.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by achilleus
An important distinction to make is that FIE clothing is the safest when used with FIE blades, which are suppossed to break flat.

Actually, they don't. I asked Dan Dechaine about thgis at the Long Beach Invitational this year. He said no difference was found in the breakage patter on carbon-steel vs maraging steel blades...FIEs can break jagged; carbon-steels can break flat.

The safety in an FIE blade comes from the fact that the microfractures that develop over time and cause a complete break inthe blade devlop MUCH more slowly in an FIE blade vs a carbon-steel...ten TIMES more slowly, IIRC.

Therefore, because the incidence of blade breakage is so much less, the incidence of injury follows.

Regardless of the reasons, FIEs are good!

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Actually, they don't. I asked Dan Dechaine about thgis at the Long Beach Invitational this year. He said no difference was found in the breakage patter on carbon-steel vs maraging steel blades...FIEs can break jagged; carbon-steels can break flat.

The safety in an FIE blade comes from the fact that the microfractures that develop over time and cause a complete break inthe blade devlop MUCH more slowly in an FIE blade vs a carbon-steel...ten TIMES more slowly, IIRC.

Therefore, because the incidence of blade breakage is so much less, the incidence of injury follows.

Regardless of the reasons, FIEs are good!

You are correct, I simplified things. Dan's comment is accurate as usual.

[135711]

I got the idea of wearing baseball pants from one of the beginner girls at a salle I fenced in. I thought it was a good idea for a few reasons, first they're longer than knickers, which is good for epee, that way your socks can tuck under the knee flap; second reason is that I felt that if a baseball player could slide into first base on the ground, they had to be pretty durable. But until they're okay for competition, I save them for practice. My main beef is when epeeist wear shorts during practice, it's very difficult to do justice to the sport. So for the beginner epeeist, for classroom work, I like baseball pants with a pair of bike pants under it for extra protection.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by 135711
I got the idea of wearing baseball pants from one of the beginner girls at a salle I fenced in. I thought it was a good idea for a few reasons, first they're longer than knickers, which is good for epee, that way your socks can tuck under the knee flap; second reason is that I felt that if a baseball player could slide into first base on the ground, they had to be pretty durable. But until they're okay for competition, I save them for practice. My main beef is when epeeist wear shorts during practice, it's very difficult to do justice to the sport. So for the beginner epeeist, for classroom work, I like baseball pants with a pair of bike pants under it for extra protection.

Sliding into first base, and getting a broken epee to the thigh aren't really similar. Although for beginners, it's not a bad substitute, if they don't want to spend the extra $30 for for fencing pants.

That said, there is a guy down here who claims he's delicate and always wears baseball sliding shorts underneath his FIE's. They have foam padding through the hips.

[Mulligan]

Wait a minute...."should" and "must" are two different things.

A fencer "should" wear knickers that are of robust material. But the rules do not dictate the type of material. In fact the rules state that it is the fencer's responsibility to wear "safe" clothing and they fence at thier own risk.

As for the 10 centimeter rule...most baseball pants have a low crotch which allows you to pull them up. There is easily a 10 centimeter overlap if you pull them up and wear suspenders.

Most sweat pants DON'T have front pockets. Assuming that they don't, and assuming that they can be pulled up high enough, they qualify as USFA regulation knickers. (I think that one can assume that the word "fastened" in the rules would indicate that they must have a drawstring or elastic at the cuffs.

[dreadfoil]

i should've hit the quote button: "delicate" "foam padding around the hips" this is insane! okay, here we go, i'll wear thin tights, for mobility, and wrap the entire body in styrafoam!

Well, all kidding aside, it would make sence then to try to wear fie attire as much as possible to reduce the risk of getting punctured. But, my only quibble with FIE standard clothing is that it seems to constantly increase in specifications due to the increased strength of fencers; the changes in the way people fence ie: modernists, the weapons themselves which are better manufactured and so forth. Not to go on and on about this, but for the sake of experimentation, has anyone thought about throwing 6 meters at the end of a strip and see what happens with the guard lines moved back 1 meter each? I have a feeling that mass and velocity would decrease the force by which fencers are now able to hit?

[omaoligain]

So, no one has really answered my original question. Can they disallow ALL sweats and baseball pants if they meet the requirements laid out in the USFA rules? (long enough to be attached below the knee, high enough to have a ten CM overlap with the jacket.)

[omaoligain]

oiuyt,
I could not find any mention in the rulebook that the pants must be "sufficiently robust."

Where can I find that?

[oiuyt]

m.25
3. Characteristics of the clothing. Fencers’ clothing must be made of sufficiently robust material and be clean and in good condition.

Amazing what a search for the word "robust" will find in the rule book....

Mulligan- It doesn't say should, it says must.

-B :)

[omaoligain]

very good ...thank you

[135711]

t.21 "must be hale and healthy"

[fence1848]

We recently had some discussion about the knickers requirement controversy in Virginia and ran into some issues.

First of all, in the past, Virginia division allowed fencers to fence in competitions wearing jeans if the front pockets were sealed with something like duct tape. I came from a club, however, that frowned on this practice and does not allow fencers - even beginners - to wear jeans at fencing practice. The reasoning was that jeans - even loose fitting ones - are very constricting to the leg muscles, especially behind the knees and below the hip. I don't remember the rulebook exactly, but I seem to remember that there is a rule against wearing clothing that could be hazardous to the fencer.

Sweatpants (which is what we usually encouraged people to wear to practice) were not allowed at competitions, however, because they were not made of sufficiently robust material.

The jeans issue irked me because, while it was true that sweatpants were not made of sufficiently robust material, knickers did not meet regulation either, yet an exception was made for them.

This past year we made it clear that the policy on jeans would not be accepted any longer. The rules regarding knickers had to be uniform, so we made sure people knew that it was now required. I don't think it affected many people anyhow, since all but 2 or 3 people wore anything but knickers anymore. Those that still wore jeans were part of a school club, and it's certainly a budget justificiation to a school board to purchase the proper equipment for safety.

I realize that not everyone has yet made the investment into knickers, but I feel that an exception should not be made for one type of non-regulation equipment and not an alternative. They're both illegal in USFA competition, and neither should be allowed at tournaments.

That being said, to anyone thinking about wearing them to competition: do so at your own risk. I have seen referees refuse to allow people to fence in jeans or sweatpants, and it is within their jurisdiction.

If you're just practicing, wear sweats or knickers. If you're in a competition, wear knickers only. They're just better for you, anyhow.

[voi3ad]

I am a part of the On Target club and will ask the people there for clarification. I bought baseball pants for practice-1/2 price on the 2nd pair-can't beat that.

[135711]

For practice anyone can wear whatever a coach will tolerate; but for inter-salle competition it's better to follow specifications. maybe the way to go, for all of us, is the unitard. The wave of the future......Unitard with a super-light lame for the foilist and saberist; then rip if off for epee? And actually, a Unitard that goes to the ankle wouldn't be a bad idea.

[a517dogg]

Unitards are an awful idea. nobody should wear them. please.