Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Fencing Passion · 03-31-2003, 10:50 PM

Ok listen up,
I love ure segments about fencing i am 15 ad still learning u realy know ure stuff, but half the time ure just bad mouthing the usa i really dont agree with the bombing and all but come on our men that r out there r dying, pay a little respect, and yes i know they r dying 2 but if u know or have seen some of the stuff ive seen and heard then u would agree those people need help and 2 be rescued......well anyway tell me ure opionin i have great respect for u, ure fencing skills, and ure opionin.

edew · 03-31-2003, 11:02 PM

Wrong forum.

Fencing Passion · 03-31-2003, 11:06 PM

yea lol sorry just noticed...

Fencing Passion · 03-31-2003, 11:33 PM

O sorry,
i was illinformed i hadent read all ure msges i had just heard from people i notice u have alot of the same views as me but plz still awnser my questions and all im 15 and im not sure wut news i get from the media is bull or real.......

pkt · 04-01-2003, 02:58 PM

Fencing passion (FP),

I feel privileged to be named in a thread...

I don't disagree with you vis a vis the service people, those who are on the frontline.

I support them 100% - sorry, I go no further beyond 100%.

I, like the rest of the world, have problems with the POTUS George Dubya and Dubya only. I do not and have no wish to badmouth the US or the people of the US.

So do a lot of the ex-US-military generals in their analysis of how this war is carried out.

t is obvious that some of the things like Turkey's refusal to let the US deploy their troops from Turkey is out of their control.

But ask yourself these questions:
Shouldn't and couldn't Dubya have waited till they have secured Turkey's approval to deploy trooops so the game plan is intact before the US started the attack?
What IS the rush into war?
What do you think this headlong rush into war without all the pieces inplace does to the security to the chances of the troopers?

As it is the troops that should have been deployed from the northern front is now en route to the south of Iraq in ships.

And to keep the game plan intact they airdropped 1,000 troops in the north of Iraq, not so much to fight Saddam - not with 1,000 troopers, you don't - but to keep the peace between Turkey and the Kurds...

FP, read my postings and suggested reading in the other threads, such as 'Warmonger' and the rebuttals to the anti-Frnech jokes, then come back and tell me where I stand.

I'm glad I live in Canada and hace access to view points other than those eminating from the US. I admit I'm a news junkie. from the civic level all the way to the international level. For goodness sakes, I even read the news about new space discovery.

--)-----------

to civiltech and everyone, an illutration of why one should look at more than one coverage of the same thing.

on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp. - the government-owned Cdn equivalent to BBC though not as well respected as the Beeb worldwide) the coverage on Beckie Harcourt, the wife of a former premier (governor) of BC, for bravery in saving her husband after he fell down a 6-m cliff and almost drowned by the Lifesavng Society.

On CTV they showed a clip and the text read by Sandy Renaldo (?spelling) gives one the impression that the Lifesaving Society held the medal presentation for only Beckie Harcourt. No mention was made, no footage was shown of the other 18 people who also got medals for bravery.

The CBC did both.

Another example was when one newspaper showed the foto of a sumo wrestler catching a baseball. Another newspaper showed the other half of the foto: Another sumowrestler was doing the pitching. Same foto, different cropping gave a very diff't story.

I agree that editing a story or foto is necessary. But it is the sort of editing as in the first foto or the presentation of the Beckie Harcourt story that one has to be weary about.

PK

Aoife · 04-01-2003, 04:50 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with PKT on this one (to be honest, I agree with PKT on most things

). You must always try to get your news from many sources. I too am only 15 (but 16 soon, yipee!

) and I try to get as much news as possible. I read one daily left-wing broadsheet (the Guardian), a left-wing tabloid a few times a week (The Mirror), I read four local papers (Thanet Times, Thanet Gazette, Kent Messenger, and Kent on Sunday), and I listen to BBC Worldservice most of the time on the radio (although sometimes I listen to BBC Radio 4 if I can't get any AM channels). I tend to watch the news less, but when I do I try to get a mix of BBC, Meridian, and C4.

Try to get the best mix you can, and when you can't, recognise how the media you have is biased (all media is biased one way or another, even if they purport not to be), and once you spot the bias, have fun watching how they use language and imagry to coerce you to their point of view.

edew · 04-01-2003, 05:19 PM

The rush to war is political timing. They expecting nine months max. So to start it a year from now will mean war news (with possible negative reporting) during the political races for offices. With the war in the bag, GWB can ride on his victorious laurels (and what chance will it fail, given that the US has the most powerful and advanced military technology, and fighting a two-bit has-been hoodlum) and make the presidential race a cakewalk.

Notice that he isn't gunning N. Korea, because that could be a political landmine.

pkt · 04-01-2003, 06:12 PM

eric,

is that what they mean by 'act globally and think locally'?

I guess Dubya wants to do a Mrs Thatcher vis a vis Falkland.

"...what chance will it fail, given that the US has the most powerful and advanced military technology, and fighting a two-bit has-been hoodlum"
be that as it may. No matter how much aerial bombing it's still up to the footsoldiers - the boots on the ground (BOG)- to finally win the battle. According to some retired general, the US do not have enough BOG as it is.

--)----------

BTW, Aoife, the Daily Mirror - some pundits call that a tabloid -have hired Peter Arnet, formerly of NBC and National Geographic.

I tried reading the Telegraph till I realise it's owned by Lord Black he who in a tiff with the PM over the latter's refusal to allow him to have his Lordship gave up his Canadian citizenship... his wife is Barbara Amiel...'nuff said.

PK

KShan5[PrFC] · 04-01-2003, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aoife
Yeah, I have to agree with PKT on this one (to be honest, I agree with PKT on most things ). You must always try to get your news from many sources. I too am only 15 (but 16 soon, yipee! ) and I try to get as much news as possible. I read one daily left-wing broadsheet (the Guardian), a left-wing tabloid a few times a week (The Mirror), I read four local papers (Thanet Times, Thanet Gazette, Kent Messenger, and Kent on Sunday), and I listen to BBC Worldservice most of the time on the radio (although sometimes I listen to BBC Radio 4 if I can't get any AM channels). I tend to watch the news less, but when I do I try to get a mix of BBC, Meridian, and C4.

Try to get the best mix you can, and when you can't, recognise how the media you have is biased (all media is biased one way or another, even if they purport not to be), and once you spot the bias, have fun watching how they use language and imagry to coerce you to their point of view.

I live in Massachusetts. Everything I hear is liberal. I have to search real hard to find things of conservative nature. lol. It is not tough as a conservative in MA to find many opposiong views.

pkt · 04-01-2003, 08:02 PM

I don't read them often, but how ould u rate:
The New York Times and
The Washington Post?

What is a good e-liberal paper from MA?

PK

Fencing Passion · 04-01-2003, 08:36 PM

im not realy sure,
being i live in the usa im not sure if all the news i c is sensered or wut im a 15 year old who has no drive 2 fined more about all this out other than these forums.

Yea ill try and get more info next time thanks for the awnsers.....

pkt · 04-01-2003, 08:48 PM

FP,

these day and age you can find a lot on the net.

See my thread titled 'Warmonger' int he Water coller section.

PK

daeceg · 04-02-2003, 04:16 PM

New York Times and Washington Post are both great newspapers. They do tend to have a slight liberal tendency, but they both have taken strong stands in favor of conservative issues before. The NYT headline articles are availible free online, but you have to register with them.

I try hard to find news from different sources, but in Texas, all the big daily papers are ridiculously conservative and thoroughly biased. For any investigative journalism, we have to rely on our weekly alternative publication, the Chronicle. I subscribe to Newsweek, Time, Flying, Plane & Pilot, Aviation History, The Hightower Lowdown (a progressive populist broadsheet), and Foreign Affairs. (not too bad, huh?) I also try to read the Economist at least once a month. I also listen to the BBC World Service in the evening.

Any suggestions for international news?

Regarding the war: I support the troops wholeheartedly. What is the best way to show that? Keep them out of harm's way!

Support our troops:bring them home!

I'm an American, and a Texan. and I embarrassed to all hell about what our "president" is doing right now. (and the fact he's from Texas...we usually grow 'em smarter than that here)

pkt · 04-02-2003, 05:01 PM

daeceg,

for a Texan you're funny.

For diff't viewpoints try these:

UK
Reuters
and all the plethora of e-newspapers

CANADA
CBC
http://www.cbc.ca/index.html
Globe & Mail
http://www.globeandmail.com/headdex

HONGKONG
http://www.scmp.com/

CHINA - take your pick
http://www.chinapages.com/news/newspp.html
http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/china.htm
unfortunately most of these are in Chinese, I couldn't open the one that's in English...

Then there're the Arab newspapers

Al-Jazeera
Al-Jazeera English - if they can finally shake off the hackers who are bent on 'denial of service' to others who have more open minds
Jordan Times
Arab News
Daily Star

Happy reading

PK

daeceg · 04-02-2003, 05:22 PM

Thanks for the heads up!

Texas humor has a proud tradition in our folk songs and stories. Real country music (not that Nashville s$@$!) is full of wordplay and a self-reflective sort of spirit. Ever watch "King of the Hill"?

pkt · 04-02-2003, 05:28 PM

Can't say I have. Isn't that the cartoon show?

I watch 'West Wing' when I remember to. In fact in Canada we get to watch it beofer the Americans do...

PK

daeceg · 04-02-2003, 06:56 PM

"Yep"

King of the Hill is an excellent show that really gets to the heart of what Texas is all about, and I don't mean cowboys and Indians...

civiltech · 04-03-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkt
Fencing passion (FP),

I feel privileged to be named in a thread...

I don't disagree with you vis a vis the service people, those who are on the frontline.

I support them 100% - sorry, I go no further beyond 100%.

I, like the rest of the world, have problems with the POTUS George Dubya and Dubya only. I do not and have no wish to badmouth the US or the people of the US.

So do a lot of the ex-US-military generals in their analysis of how this war is carried out.

t is obvious that some of the things like Turkey's refusal to let the US deploy their troops from Turkey is out of their control.

But ask yourself these questions:
Shouldn't and couldn't Dubya have waited till they have secured Turkey's approval to deploy trooops so the game plan is intact before the US started the attack?
What IS the rush into war?
What do you think this headlong rush into war without all the pieces inplace does to the security to the chances of the troopers?

As it is the troops that should have been deployed from the northern front is now en route to the south of Iraq in ships.

And to keep the game plan intact they airdropped 1,000 troops in the north of Iraq, not so much to fight Saddam - not with 1,000 troopers, you don't - but to keep the peace between Turkey and the Kurds...

FP, read my postings and suggested reading in the other threads, such as 'Warmonger' and the rebuttals to the anti-Frnech jokes, then come back and tell me where I stand.

I'm glad I live in Canada and hace access to view points other than those eminating from the US. I admit I'm a news junkie. from the civic level all the way to the international level. For goodness sakes, I even read the news about new space discovery.

--)-----------

to civiltech and everyone, an illutration of why one should look at more than one coverage of the same thing.

on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp. - the government-owned Cdn equivalent to BBC though not as well respected as the Beeb worldwide) the coverage on Beckie Harcourt, the wife of a former premier (governor) of BC, for bravery in saving her husband after he fell down a 6-m cliff and almost drowned by the Lifesavng Society.

On CTV they showed a clip and the text read by Sandy Renaldo (?spelling) gives one the impression that the Lifesaving Society held the medal presentation for only Beckie Harcourt. No mention was made, no footage was shown of the other 18 people who also got medals for bravery.

The CBC did both.

Another example was when one newspaper showed the foto of a sumo wrestler catching a baseball. Another newspaper showed the other half of the foto: Another sumowrestler was doing the pitching. Same foto, different cropping gave a very diff't story.

I agree that editing a story or foto is necessary. But it is the sort of editing as in the first foto or the presentation of the Beckie Harcourt story that one has to be weary about.

PK

I agree with you, and your comments regarding the CBC's society pieces. They are excellent when it comes to reporting news on culture, arts, music, etc. I enjoy sitting long drives listening to the CBC.

However, when it comes to reporting unbiasd truth on the news, and politics of Canada, they are out to lunch. (I believe this is a recent developement with the CBC. They used to be well respected in my books not long ago.) You mentioned an article about the CBC and the Royal Life Saving Society. The CBC had reported the whole story, while CTV News had not. Well, that's good. This is not their policy when in comes to politics, economy, and the government. The CBC continually reported news on education cutbacks by our government, and the gutting of the health care system. (Even though Ontario was ranked 4th ni North America for per capita spending on students, with one of the lowest rankings for actual education in elementary, and secondary schools.) The CBC didn't report that the gov't streamlined our education system, brought in standard province wide testing, and held teachers responsible for the fat salaries they make. AND THEY DID THIS WITH LESS MONEY!!! Our students rank as one of the highest is North America, and we now spend as one of the least in the same area!!!! Ernie Eaves injected 1/2 Billion into the education system not six months ago. It didn't even get a mentioned on the Communist Broadcasting Corporation. However the National Review (Magazine), and The National Report seemed to have mentioned it. Funny how that "works."

Our federal gov't hands out the money for the CBC. Funny how the 1 Billion mismanaged and ultimatly gone from the HRDC scandel never really materialized on the CBC. As a taxpayer, I would find that a little interesting!!! Don't get me wrong, it was reported as more of a non-headlines piece, for 30 seconds, then move on to the next issue. However the Walkerton water tradgedy was squeezed for all it's worth as an attack personally on our Premier. Even though the local utilities supervisor was a drunk, and lying about his test results, we managed to point the finger at the gov't for cut backs. The "BRAINWASHING" that CBC provides as a source of news is disheartening. When it comes to our own politics only.

The rest of your post about CBC is acceptable. I like the way they cover the war in Iraq, and they seem to hit the issues in other country's pretty close from my understanding.

Now, PKT, if I can sell you a membership to the Canadian Alliance, where would your membership card go????? I can tell your restless, and want some answers to life, and a strong country to live in.

p.s.-The entire caucus is here in Kitchener/Waterloo tomorrow! We get paired up, and are going canvassing! Any relatives in the areas we can convert???

Ciau

pkt · 04-03-2003, 06:18 PM

civiltech,

Are u going to gift me a CA emmbership? Even if it is a gift, I'll still have to turn it down:
Look at the shameless 'kiss American ***' stance of the leader, Stephen Harper, this is in spite of the fact that CA vowed to listen to their constituents. The Cdn people has voted in polls to be for the PM's stance vis a vis participation in the attack on Iraq if and only if there is UN sanction. This stance is very much in line with the historical stance that Cda take on the international stage.

----------(---

The CBC did cover the HRDC and gun registry $1billion boondoggles strenously.

Neither did the National CBC report the 'streamlining' - I hate that word - of the BC education system. No one died. The local CBC did though.

Walkerton is important because it is the tip of the iceberg. Similar failures - variances from the norm in the drinking water were faxed to MinHealth office and sat there unnoticed till it's too late - happened in BC too but fortnately no one got sick... I found this out because a BC company is seeking to replace the reporting by fax with reporting by email - presumably with the appropriate bells and whistles going off...

To our American friend, this is relevant to you too since h2o is expected to be the next cause for friction, yes, even for war in the world.

There are a few things that we here in BC have leared by being a bit slow:
1. In the early 70s, the City Council of Vancouver saw what was happening in Seattle re the development of the freeway system, and the subsequent suburbanisation/urban sprawl, they decide not to have a hwy going through to Downtown. 30-odd years later, Vancouver has been voted by various ogranisations as one of the most livable cities in the world.
2. Since Premier Mike Harris privatised or deregulated Ontario Hydro, and the subsequent reversal by Premeier Ernie Eves, BCers are vehemently against the splitting up of BC Hydro.
3. SARS is worse in TO than in Vancouver, both cities with substantial Chinese population, is more a reflection of luck than anything. But again, one may contribute it to the relative health of the health system here in BC...

I thin kyou'll find that you'll agree with Stephen Hulme's piece in today's Vancouver Sun.

PS, do you like my 'new' darkside avatar?

Enjoy.

PK

----------(---

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vanc...0-42C29C804F21

COLUMN
We can be proud of Canada's response to war

Stephen Hume
Special to the Sun

Thursday, April 03, 2003

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've heard enough from those who say they are ashamed to be Canadians because the government of the day decided that it wasn't in the national interest to go to war just because somebody else decided to.

Disappointed in the Liberal government and want to kick them out in the next election? Fine. Angry with Prime Minister Jean Chretien? Perfectly okay. Ashamed of Canada? Ashamed to be citizens of a country that permits the free expression of dissent? I don't think so.

Are Canadians cowards because their democratically elected government has said that a broader base of United Nations support is necessary to justify both the invasion of Iraq and the frightful humanitarian cost it already inflicts upon innocent civilians? No.

Some of us may argue the necessity of accepting civilian casualties as the price of ousting an evil dictator. Some, more women than men, it appears, are looking at their own kids and asking whether they'd accept the necessity of having them shredded by some far away politician "for the greater good." Deciding one way or the other may be disagreeable but it's not shameful.

So no, Canadians and their government may be conflicted on this issue, but that doesn't mean they are cowards -- our sacrifices to build democracy and keep the peace in places like Cypress, the Golan Heights, Bosnia, Croatia, Rwanda and Haiti attest otherwise.

Frankly, it takes courage to say "No" on principle when being leaned upon by a neighbour with 10 times the population, the most powerful military in human history and an economy that dwarfs those of its competitors.

Was it shameful when Canadians did not rush to assist the British and French during their invasion of Egypt during the Suez Crisis in 1956? No. Canada ultimately served a much more constructive role by staying out of those hostilities.

Was it shameful when Canadians declined to join the United States and Australia in their ill-judged military adventure in Vietnam, even opening our borders to Americans who would not support that war? No, it was not.

Canadians went to war in 1914 and suffered more than 200,000 casualties defending European allies against German aggression while the Americans stayed home until 1917. More than a million Canadians went to war in 1939 and suffered almost 100,000 casualties while the Americans joined only when they were attacked three years later.

Canadians fought with the U.S. in Korea as part of a UN police action. Canadians went to free Kuwait in 1991. Canadians joined the hunt for terrorists in Afghanistan. In all, more than 100,000 Canadians have been dispatched on more than 50 missions to keep the peace in more than 35 countries. Scores of brave Canadians have laid down their lives in that service.

Canadians are not cowards. They act on principle.

What's happening here with respect to Canada's position on the war in Iraq is simply democracy in action. Democracy is not about like-mindedness, it's about the right to have disagreements. It's about managing those disagreements through debate and accepting majority rule. And it's clear that whether or not one likes the way Ottawa has dealt with the war issue, the federal government's position reflects the view of most Canadians.

Public opinion is divided. But independent polls show that even allowing for Quebec's traditional opposition to involvement in foreign wars, support for a Canadian attack on Iraq is in the minority. For every three Canadians in favour of joining the war, five think Canadian troops should not be involved without explicit United Nations approval.

Polls will fluctuate as people modify positions in response to the war news, but public opinion on this issue has been remarkably consistent. Eight months ago, for every four who supported Canadian military involvement without UN sanction, another six were opposed.

Canadian Alliance MP Gary Lunn surveyed his constituents last fall. His riding includes a military base, is home to numerous retired military personnel and has Canada's Pacific naval forces stationed right next door at Esquimalt, yet 81 per cent opposed Canadian troops joining an American attack on Iraq without UN or NATO support.

Which raises an interesting issue for Stephen Harper.

The last time I looked at the Canadian Alliance constitution, it said that the duty of elected members to their electors "supersedes their obligations to their political parties or personal views" and that government "should reflect the will of the citizens."

I have no doubt of Harper's sincerity in advocating that Canada should be at war in Iraq, and I'll defend his right to say so. But how does calling on Canada to join the war square with the party's constitution when a majority of the electorate thinks otherwise? To be consistent with his party principles, shouldn't Harper instead be calling for the referendum his party's constitution advises rather than simply advocating a war position contrary to what the voters want?

Meanwhile, enough of this "ashamed to be Canadian" rhetoric.

Disagreeing with the government is everybody's right. Those who do disagree should stop this drivel about their unbearable shame because they can't have their way. Instead, they should convince the voters to change that government. That's how democracy works. It's why this country is one to be proud of.

shume@islandnet.com

© Copyright 2003 Vancouver Sun

civiltech · 04-04-2003, 10:16 AM

PKT,

your understanding of Ontario politics, and the hydro/SARS/ETc. is incorrect.

As SARS was brought to Canada through international travel, you'll have to take up it's spread here with the appropriate Federal Ministry. Canada has the largest accounted persons with SARS out side of China. And yes Toronto has a great number of them. However, i would hardly think that the number here is as a result of our Ministry of Health.

I am unsure what you are trying to say about our hydro. The PC's gov't has simply taken the stance that they don't believe one giant crown corporation should have a monopoly over a utility. They have seen Californa, and Alberta go through growing pains by privatization, and now have the chance to steer clear of inflated prices etc, and other issues that have plagued them. If you lived here before the gov't began reforming O.H., you would understand that the money frivilously spent in Ontario Hydro was obscene.

Finally, I just want to simply state that Ontario, and Alberta are two provinces which are conservative in their business, and government. They are also the economic power houses of Canada. This is not a recent anomoly either. Your Liberal gov't in BC is doing much the same that Mike Harris had done in the early 90's. He's trying to save his province, and bring back the glory days by reinventing a core economy. Not easy with the mess he's been handed. Not popular, of course. However, if you stay the track, your province will reap the benefits in the future. Want the quick and easy out ith gov't injections of cash now to "fuel" the economy. It will get worse in the years to come.