Iraq War Thread: Pics of POWs?

[thebigriddle]

Did everyone see the pictures of the dead pows?

[Event Horizon]

I want to say yes, but am not sure. Some papers have run pics they say are of dead POW's but you can't really tell. I think US media (maybe all western media) have decided not to show those pics.

I for one would like to see them. For the simple reason of having proof of what is being alleged against the Iraqis. It's probably true, but still need the proof.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally posted by Event Horizon
I want to say yes, but am not sure. Some papers have run pics they say are of dead POW's but you can't really tell. I think US media (maybe all western media) have decided not to show those pics.

I for one would like to see them. For the simple reason of having proof of what is being alleged against the Iraqis. It's probably true, but still need the proof.

Swedish papers have shown pictures of dead allied soldiers. Injuries are visible, but I can not see that those are of the type that they must have come from killing a POW - death through battle seems quite possible. They have also shown the pictures of the five live POW from the 507th.

Personally, I doubt that the Iraqis would kill POW´s - it is not in their best interest. What better bodyguard than a *live* US. POW is there? Also, the Iraqis should figure out that live POW´s sap the morals of allied troops, while dead ones fire them up. I suspect that this is an example of the first casualty of every war.

Peter Gustafsson

[Gav]

I agree with Peter on this one. It seems far more likely that the images have been held back for reasons other that 'decency'. It seems strange that these images have been pulled when you can see images of dead Iraqi's. I see that Iraq has denied that it executed them as POW's. Saddam, for all that he's a very nast piece of work, strikes me as a very astute political leader. I'm sure he knows what is in the best interests of his regime.

[civiltech]

Bad Iraq for not playing by the US's rules.

The US should take there ball and go home.

[jusplainfencing]

i for one have not seen any pictures but have heard reports that their was a video or somthing reather that the pentagon was viewing that showed U.S p.o.w`s being shot exacution style...i really hope not but saddaam dosent seem to play by any rules.... speacially the genieve(sp)hate convention or anything else for that matter

[civiltech]

Originally posted by jusplainfencing
i for one have not seen any pictures but have heard reports that their was a video or somthing reather that the pentagon was viewing that showed U.S p.o.w`s being shot exacution style...i really hope not but saddaam dosent seem to play by any rules.... speacially the genieve(sp)hate convention or anything else for that matter

You talk about rules?

Did the US even invade Iraw legally? The US says so. That's IT'S LAW. The US is quite happy to bomb targets, with "minimal civilian casualties." That's an interesting moral statement. I wonder if they are breaking any laws.

Don't get me wrong. The Iraqi gov't is pretty bad. But let's face it: The US isn't so squeaky clean either. I find a lot of what the US is doing is complaining and whining. Not really stating any laws are being broken. More of a propoganda campaign led by CNN. I have heard so much about suspected chemical plants, and W.O.M.D. only to be discounted a few days later. Or chemical weapons suits found in an Irawi wharehouse. If your country was invaded, would you not want to protect your military as well? It's ok for the American troups to wear them but noone else?

Personally, I hope the US finds some chemical/biological weapons. If not, they'll have a lot of explaining to do. Especially to an international court of law.

Were continental soldiers of the US fighting illegaly against the British empire in your revolution. They didn't fight like armies did back then. They didn't follow "the rules" of war. Rules governing killing kinda sounds sick.

[jusplainfencing]

i know where your coming from..but on the other hand listing to the iraqi people talk about how their living...what they all have been forced to see...and live i dont care what reason we have for being over their be it bush`s revenge for the attempted assasination of his father or the oil or whatever.. somthing needed to be done for these people.....its pretty bad when the iraqi people want the u.s to attack because THEY know somthing needed to be done....iraq has allready proved that they have not been truthfull as they have used weapons they they were not supposed to have....but i hope that iraq dosent use chemical or biological weapons that would be very bad and i know people over there so i hope that everyone comes back safe... but yes it would be helpful if we did find somthing concrete so we can justify our attack but for me it dosent really matter(and yes i mnow MANY people are going to disagree)~getting off on another topic~.i for one would not have voted for bush(not old enuff) but i think we all need to stand behind our prez pro war or not....it makes me mad to see all the protesting going on ecspeacially the stars....they dont all have to have a public opinion just because they are stars...

[It]

I downloaded the video. Made me really angry, really sad, and gave me some understanding why we are over there.



I would go on and have gone on, but posting what I have to say would take up entire my day. I already erased this X ammount of times times.




I shed a tear for those who leave and another for when they return

[pkt]

To all my American friends,

I agree with civiltech on this 'problem'. So did Sen. Byrd.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Mar19.html

Please read this breif piece in the Washington Post.

The position of the US re the showing of the POWs and dead soldiers is hypocritical: it is OK for the western media to show the Iraqi POWs and the Iraqi deads, but it is indecent for Al-Jazeera to do the same. Pleas tell me the difference other than which side is showing the evidence.

While I'm on Al-Jazeera - the ONLY unbiased, moderate voice of the Arab world - they started their English webite this past Monday and was promptly hacked and their contents was replaced by a 'stars-&-stripe'. The hackers' action is patently undemocratic: for a true democracy to work, the citizens should be educated and informed. By denying others access to Al-Jazeera the hackers are anti-democratic.

In the meantime I satisfy myself with
http://www.reuters.com/
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
two of the recognised unbiased news sources.

Then there is this news I hear about US shop owners refusing to serve Canadians. It started with e-bay...

In the meantime, Canadian businesses are worried about losing business.

We live in a confused world:
the best rapper is a white guy;
the best golfer is a black guy;
the French is accusing the US of arrogance and
Germany will not go to war.

As a pretend warrior myslef, I say 'salom'

PK

[Moonitic]

BLESS YOU & THANK YOU, Justplainfencing!

We Americans (as well as some other countries...without naming names) are so stinkin' spoiled! We have the RIGHT to complain about our government & our president because people fought hard to gain that right for us! In Iraq, they can't. It doesn't happen. If it does...BAM! You're dead. If you dodge the bullet (or missle), guess who gets it instead? Yep...your family.

Don't believe me? Come to Dearborn & Dearborn Heights, Michigan...interview some of the citizens. It's the largest population of Middle Easterners in the country. They'll all tell you the same thing, plus more.

They don't get to vote their choice. Choice doesn't exist. Yet here, you're free to choose...even when those choices stink. They're yours to smell up the place. Thank God for the people who died for them all the same. We wouldn't be here if someone didn't stand up & say, "Enough."

And maybe, just maybe, that's what some people are finally starting to do. Maybe I'm not thinking "shallow" enough. Maybe some people aren't thinking deep enough. But I'm standing up & saying right now that I support this effort. I appreciate everything that those brave men & women are doing, whether those they're trying to help appreciate it or not. That's not why you do something for someone...you do it because you feel it's right.

We can sit at our computers talking about it all we want. Unless we do something, what can we really say?

[pkt]

Moonitic,

Who gave the POTUS (President of the US) the right to be judge and jury on the world stage?

Look at the piece on Senator Byrd in the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Mar19.html

So, as Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister of Canada asked, "Who's next after Iraq?" Iran? N. Korea? Zimbawe? Or Canada?

I'm not joking about putting Canada in that list: As a result of Ambassador Cellucci's outburst in Canada, it's been said that Canada has lost its clout in Washington till there's a regime change....

One thing we've learned thus far in the war on Iraq is that the Arab world is NOW definitely united against the US when it wasn't before.

Again, I ask you to read Sen. Byrd's assesment of the situation if you still have yet to.

the brave men and women in the frontlines are learning a new lesson:
their generals are now admitting that they have underestimated the Iraqis. they admit today that "the enemy is not the same one
we wargamed against."

We all know when we are on the piste what happens when we underestimate our opponent... But in our case we won't lose our lives over this mistake. These brave men and women in Iraq might.

20 UK and 22 US servicemen and women have already paid the price for someother people's mistakes.

PK

[Moonitic]

Remember this, & that's all I will say: The little child who is starving, or had his mommy & daddy murdered for telling Saddam's men "no" doesn't care about politics. He doesn't care who "was made judge & jury." He wants food. He wants love. He wants care. He wants the evil to stop. And if that comes from a so-called "stupid" man across the sea in a country he's never been to & has only heard bad things about, I'll bet he'll take it just the same.

May NONE of us in America (or anywhere where there is freedom) ever have to face what those people are facing now.

(My point? Drop the politics for a few minutes & really THINK about what's going on. Under all those puffed up egos are people who are suffering, & that suffering must end. Those soldiers (many of whom joined AFTER the conflict started) are there to help. Now what can we do to help? How can we band together? Or are we too good for that? Is that what being American & having freedom is? Ignoring the cries of others? I don't think so.)

PS...no, I didn't read the article. I'm not interested. I've heard enough from the people who are the real victims in this. Not some guys sitting in offices, wearing expensive suits, driving nice cars & going home to huge houses at the end of the day.

Think about it.

[pkt]

Originally posted by Moonitic
...

May NONE of us in America (or anywhere where there is freedom) ever have to face what those people are facing now.

(... Under all those puffed up egos are people who are suffering, & that suffering must end. Those soldiers ... are there to help. Now what can we do to help? How can we band together? Or are we too good for that? Is that what being American & having freedom is? Ignoring the cries of others? I don't think so.)

PS... I've heard enough from the people who are the real victims in this. Not some guys sitting in offices, wearing expensive suits, driving nice cars & going home to huge houses at the end of the day.

Think about it.

--)-----------

Moonitic ,

Shouldn't charity start at home? By home I mean the US of A? Look at the plight of the black population in the US and can you tell me with a straight face that "No, these people don't need help. They have freedom and they don't face the sufferings and privations the Iraqi people face."

Then ask yourself the question:
Who decides who is suffering?

What about the Palestinian people who have to live as refugees in their own homeland.

Imagine: AS REFUGEES IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

Imagine: You have a deed to a piece of land for generations and a 'democratic' government that you cannot vote for says that that is just a piece of paper, they won't honour that.

Is that not suffering?

Is Uncle Sam going to 'liberate' the Palestinian people?
How about the people of Zimbawe?
Or North Korea?

This is what senator Byrd said:
Please do NOT close your mind.

Washington Post
Thursday, March 20, 2003; Page A20

Byrd Denounces War Against Iraq, Saying It Will Hurt U.S. Image

The oldest member of the U.S. Congress rose in a nearly empty Senate chamber yesterday to denounce as misguided President Bush's march to war with Iraq.

"Today I weep for my country," Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) said. "No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. . . . Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.

"We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance," Byrd said. "After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe."

Byrd, who has been a leading foe on Capitol Hill of war with Iraq, spoke about four hours before Bush's deadline for Saddam Hussein to leave Iraq or face a U.S.-led invasion.

"The case this administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence," Byrd said.

Despite administration suggestions to the contrary, Byrd said, "There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11."

As the 85-year-old senator concluded his remarks, a number of people in the visitor's gallery rose and applauded before they were admonished to be quiet.

The senator said: "We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason. This is a war of choice."

Byrd said that instead of negotiating, Washington demanded obedience or threatened recrimination. "Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves."

He said many questions about the looming war were unanswered.

"A pall has fallen over the Senate chamber," Byrd said. "We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq."

Reuters

Best wishes,

PK

[jusplainfencing]

BLESS YOU & THANK YOU, Justplainfencing!

wow im really surprised that someone actually agreed with me,...
its sad to to think that some people cant see that what we are doing is a good thing.....

[pkt]

jusplainfencing,

How can what the US is doing in Iraq a good thing?

1. Under the "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" reasoning, the US supplied the ingredients for making poison gas - back in the 80s the term 'weapon of mass destruction' has yet to be coined. See the cartoon that shows either Bush or Powell in answer to the question, "Where is the evidence?" "We have the receipts!"

2. When Peter Galbraith, the former US ambassador to Iraq, after witnessing the gassing of the Kurds first-handed, got Congress and the Senate to pass the 'Prevention of Genocide Bill of 1988' in 24 hours before the House rose for recess, President Reagan under the influence of industry lobby [if we sacntion Iraq for the use of poison gas to kill the kurds, we'll lose the business to others.] threatened to use his veto to kill the bill thus killing it anyway. I'm not saying that Pesident Regean is immoral in doing so, since he's looking out for the interest of the US.

3. During the first Gulf War, George I encouraged factions in Iraq to rise up against Saddam, and when the Kurds did, George I failed the Kurds by failing to follow through on giving them the support they needed and folded his arms when Saddam, in direct contravention of the ceasefire agreement, sent in the helicopters that the US sold them and tanks to attack the Kurds.

4. What George W is doing is, therefore, just trying to correct the misdeeds of previous US regimes. In that it is a good thing.

5. It would have been a much better thing had Dubya, like in the Frist Gulf War, got the backing of the UN by showing the REAL evidence before going in. Read Senator Byrd's speech for why that'd be a much better thing.

Salom,

PK

[thebigriddle]

I have been following the politics for the past four years. I think people get blinded and don't see what is happening around them. They don't see the forest for the trees. I see a direction for our country and the rest of the world. And it doesn't not have freedom in it. Remember freedom is slavery. I watch the protest and all I see is people getting arrested. Remember the media tells you how many get arrested. A nice way to prevent protesting in the first place. Psychological warfare against the public. I spent ten years of my life as a soldier. I don't regret any of it. I also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

I don't have a problem with helping others. I think kindness and being merciful is the best path and is right. However, concidering the size of the population in Iraq I think if they wanted what we call freedom then it would be possible. I just think not ever culture thinks of freedom the same as we do. You have to consider what is freedom to a Muslem. Rebellion is possible if the will of the mass wants it. Then you have to set up a government based in principles like what we have in the US. In America we are ruled by laws not of men. Of course I look at what the effects of all the so called terrorism has had our way of life and how it destroyed our liberties. "Those that are willing to give up liberty for safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Ben Franklin. We have lost a large percentage of our freedoms and right because our government has said it is doing it for the greater good.

Because of acts we are creating nationalism in Iraq. You giving them a cause. And with that hatred of the US. They will not just attack the government, but the American people. Thinking if the people suffer then the government will suffer. Just remember folks if a biological weapon or nukes goes off. The government folks have shelters, and food and water stored. Most have nothing is this country.

I support the troops. If we lose a large number of them, you will see UN troops moving into the US. I don't want to see our guys get killed.

Don't think the government is doing anything out of kindness for the Iraqi people. There is an objective.

God bless the Republic.

Visit www.infowars.com

[pkt]

thebigriddle,

the objective according to the Wolfovitz doctrine is world domination by the USA.

Yesterday, 03/03/29, the US Ambassador to Canada, Cellucci said in his speech in Fort St John, BC that there should be a "continental energy policy"... As an American, can you read the subtext?

As a Canadian, I do not mind the fact that there IS a practice of continental whatever, but when it becomes policy, I become weary, very weary of it.

I'm not one who subscribe to paranoia, but here's an example:

In the mid 90s we all know about the pickle California was in ernergywise. Many companies sold electricity to California at MARKET PRICE. We all know what the government of California and the US Federal Energy Regulation Comission is saying now. They are saying there was manipulation of the price of electricity sold to California a la Enron.

Well, d'oh, Mr. Commissioner, Powerex, an arm of the provincially owned BC Hydro did the prudent thing:
They use energy generated by thermal plants and bought electricity from others when the price was low so they didn't have to use the water to generate electricity. When the price is high, they use the water to generate electricity to sell on the open market. That's called prudent management.

Another one?

The US subsidises her wheat farmers to the tune of at least a $billion - an amount the Canadian gov't or any EU or other wheat producing countries can match - and then had the gall to turn around and complain that Canada sells her wheat on the market at subsidised rates... The kettle ...

I understand that as a country there is no morals, no right or wrong. The only right thing is that the country's benefits come ahead, way ahead of anybody else's.

So, you're absolutely right, the US is not being altruistic to the tune of USD 73 billion for the first war budget - there's more to come, don't kid yourself - for the Iraqi people. This is what the University of Milan's research show: The US made money on the First Gulf War to the tune of $20 Billions: $11 Billion to the US government and $9 B to the private companies, be they oil or armament companies [don't forget the US gov't had to replace all those cruise missiiles they used in Gulf War I and now Gulf War II. In 1992 a cruise missle costed about $1 million EACH. Now that the development costs have been amortised and the technology is cheaper, they cost only $600,000 each. A 40% saving per cruise missile.]

Salom,

PK

[Event Horizon]

Read in the paper that they found some shallow graves of US POW's. Am wondering if the Iraqi's actually killed them. Peter made a good point about using them as a type of leverage or bargaining chip. Ok, maybe they won't be very helpful to the Iraqi's since there is no diplomatic talks going on, but live POW's are better (valuable) than dead ones. I kind of have the feeling that maybe the interrogations got out of hand. Accident or not, those guys should pay.

[Willow]

Oh, boy, how sad that some on this forum have turned it into the "I can say whatever I want, but if you don't agree, I'll kill you or beat the crap out of you" forum. The United States of America was founded on the principle of freedom. That is, right or wrong, you have the right to state your opinion, vote your way, and live your life. If not for war, war with England, specifically, no one in the US would have the rights we have. Saddam Hussien (or however you spell his name..) is nothing more than an evil man who thinks nothing of killing anyone who doesn't agree with him. The people in Iraq, at least most people there, want him GONE. There is no freedom to even THINK your own thoughts over there. Now, I hate war. I really do. I wish it wasn't happening. BUT....the people in the service have ALWAYS known that this could happen while they are enlisted or serving the US. Trust me...no one is stupid enough to join the military and think that "I'll never see war or go into action." They ALWAYS know it's a possibility. They are trained to be prepared, in fact. You better believe that I'm going to support our troops over there. It's only by the grace of God that my husband doesn't have to go anywhere near there. He's military. I'm a military wife. I'm not stupid or uninformed. I know what's going on in the world, in other countries, and in the US, too. If people want to protest this war, as long as it's peaceful protest, I'm all for it. That's their right. It's my right to support the troops. I support our President. He didn't make any decisions lightly or without lots of thoughts and yes, even prayers. Don't like how I feel? Tough. It's your right to not like it, it's my right to feel the way I do. Try talking to people who have managed to flee from countries like Iraq....people who have come here to be able to have a better quality of life. I'll listen to them any day over someone who knows nothing about those countries or what life over there is like. They have lived it...they know the truth.