Iraq War Thread: Pics of POWs?

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Willow
Oh, boy, how sad that some on this forum have turned it into the "I can say whatever I want, but if you don't agree, I'll kill you or beat the crap out of you" forum. The United States of America was founded on the principle of freedom. That is, right or wrong, you have the right to state your opinion, vote your way, and live your life. If not for war, war with England, specifically, no one in the US would have the rights we have. Saddam Hussien (or however you spell his name..) is nothing more than an evil man who thinks nothing of killing anyone who doesn't agree with him. The people in Iraq, at least most people there, want him GONE. There is no freedom to even THINK your own thoughts over there. Now, I hate war. I really do. I wish it wasn't happening. BUT....the people in the service have ALWAYS known that this could happen while they are enlisted or serving the US. Trust me...no one is stupid enough to join the military and think that "I'll never see war or go into action." They ALWAYS know it's a possibility. They are trained to be prepared, in fact. You better believe that I'm going to support our troops over there. It's only by the grace of God that my husband doesn't have to go anywhere near there. He's military. I'm a military wife. I'm not stupid or uninformed. I know what's going on in the world, in other countries, and in the US, too. If people want to protest this war, as long as it's peaceful protest, I'm all for it. That's their right. It's my right to support the troops. I support our President. He didn't make any decisions lightly or without lots of thoughts and yes, even prayers. Don't like how I feel? Tough. It's your right to not like it, it's my right to feel the way I do. Try talking to people who have managed to flee from countries like Iraq....people who have come here to be able to have a better quality of life. I'll listen to them any day over someone who knows nothing about those countries or what life over there is like. They have lived it...they know the truth.

You have the freedom to express your view, and those that disagree with you are using their right to express their view. Don't like how they feel? Tough.

That said, there's a lot you seem to be missing. No one here has disputed that Saddam is a tyrannical dictator, heck in this case the US and Bin Laden agree that he needs to be removed. No one here has spoken poorly of the troops. Everyone hopes for their safe return, even those against the war.

People question Bush's handling of the situation. Saddam being evil is not a credible reason to go to war. The US has so many internal problems and the world is full of 'evil' men. We can't go after them all at once.

Also, my brother did exactly what you said no one does. He joined the army thinking, 'we'll never go to war again.' He knows others who did the same thing. I wish I could say people (especially my brother) were smarter, but that just isn't true.

As a side note it's a little hard to take your post seriously with your current tag line.

[pkt]

achilleus,

Very well said.
'The sunny state of insanity' indeed.

It's like the person who says, "I'm a liar..."
Is that a true statement or is it a lie?

The war we now see on TV is quite realistic. It give us a diff't appreciation of what the soldiers, especially the foot-soldiers go through. Thus far, none of us have dissed any of them.

Any one who deserved dissing is the POTUS. That seems to be the sentiments of even Senator Byrd, Prime Minister Jean Chretien of Canada, the ex-UK-foreign secretary, the ex-UK-Liberal-party whip, the Pope, former President Nelson Mandela, as well as millions of people in the world.

The case for war has not been made. The case against war is much stronger.

PK

[Moonitic]

1. pkt...thanks for being disrespectful enough to post the entire article when I specifically said, "no thanks." I still didn't read it. By the way, that could be considered copyright infringement for posting here. I could contact the author, but why bother? Neither you nor the author are worth it at this point.

2. Speaking of authors & journalism, did you know that half of what they allegedly quote isn't correct? It's all about spin, baby. It's all about the ratings.

3. achilles, I used to respect you, but your childish comment toward Willow for her tag line threw all that respect out the window. That's the tag she uses for Fantasy Land. But I forgot, some people don't happen to like Fantasy Land here. Oh well...some people have sticks (or their heads) so far up their rectal cavities that they don't see anything but their own jaws flapping.

4. Whatever reason the troops are over there, no matter if we agree or disagree, we should support them. Do you really think it helps their morale when "discussions" (aka fights) like this are going on? Particularly about their Commander-in-Chief? It could be worse, you could be living in Iraq. If you'd like to go give it a shot, I'll buy you your one way ticket, as I promised.

5. Whether it's our "right" or not to help others isn't & shouldn't even be a question. You help when people need help. If Bush has different motives, that's him at this point. But there are many others whose motives are simply to help others. Gloss over THAT as much as you want. Make it a political thing all you want. That won't change.

And pkt, if you ever need anything, don't ask me (or anyone else for that matter) for help. It's not our "right." Do it your own damn self, you spoiled twit.

Once upon a time, I respected a lot of people on this board. But now that things are getting tough, & people's true natures are coming out, I am ashamed of how they're reacting. I'm glad that people died for my freedom. I thank God for them. Thank God that I have the ability, as a woman, to speak freely...walk freely...live freely. One person said that freedom is "slavery"...no. Real freedom is something else: It's responsibility. And a LOT of people are being irresponsible.

That's all I have to say on this matter. Any responses to me will be ignored, except by others who read it here.

Translated, that means: Don't waste your breath. I'm not interested.

[civiltech]

Originally posted by Moonitic
1. pkt...thanks for being disrespectful enough to post the entire article when I specifically said, "no thanks." I still didn't read it. By the way, that could be considered copyright infringement for posting here. I could contact the author, but why bother? Neither you nor the author are worth it at this point.

2. Speaking of authors & journalism, did you know that half of what they allegedly quote isn't correct? It's all about spin, baby. It's all about the ratings.

3. achilles, I used to respect you, but your childish comment toward Willow for her tag line threw all that respect out the window. That's the tag she uses for Fantasy Land. But I forgot, some people don't happen to like Fantasy Land here. Oh well...some people have sticks (or their heads) so far up their rectal cavities that they don't see anything but their own jaws flapping.

4. Whatever reason the troops are over there, no matter if we agree or disagree, we should support them. Do you really think it helps their morale when "discussions" (aka fights) like this are going on? Particularly about their Commander-in-Chief? It could be worse, you could be living in Iraq. If you'd like to go give it a shot, I'll buy you your one way ticket, as I promised.

5. Whether it's our "right" or not to help others isn't & shouldn't even be a question. You help when people need help. If Bush has different motives, that's him at this point. But there are many others whose motives are simply to help others. Gloss over THAT as much as you want. Make it a political thing all you want. That won't change.

And pkt, if you ever need anything, don't ask me (or anyone else for that matter) for help. It's not our "right." Do it your own damn self, you spoiled twit.

Once upon a time, I respected a lot of people on this board. But now that things are getting tough, & people's true natures are coming out, I am ashamed of how they're reacting. I'm glad that people died for my freedom. I thank God for them. Thank God that I have the ability, as a woman, to speak freely...walk freely...live freely. One person said that freedom is "slavery"...no. Real freedom is something else: It's responsibility. And a LOT of people are being irresponsible.

That's all I have to say on this matter. Any responses to me will be ignored, except by others who read it here.

Translated, that means: Don't waste your breath. I'm not interested.

How come you won't chew on me to? Do I not post enough abraisive articles?

Please advise




p.s.- I agree with about 75% of what you are saying. You are almost totally enlightened!!

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Moonitic

3. achilles, I used to respect you, but your childish comment toward Willow for her tag line threw all that respect out the window. That's the tag she uses for Fantasy Land. But I forgot, some people don't happen to like Fantasy Land here. Oh well...some people have sticks (or their heads) so far up their rectal cavities that they don't see anything but their own jaws flapping.

When Michael Moore spoke at the Oscars, I agreed with his message, and I support his free speech. His speech however was considered inappropiate, timing wise, by many who share his views. This inappropiateness hurt his message.

If I were to post in Fantasy Land about politics, or use political statements in my tag line, that would affect your opinion about my posts. It would be difficult for readers to take me seriously depending on what I was writing.

If I were to walk into one of my business meetings wearing my fencing uniform, it would be hard for me to be taken seriously.

There is a time and a place for everything, and making a political statement, and then immediately below that reading the tag line, just made me chuckle.

That said, neither you nor Willow have really brought anything new to this endless discussion on the war. Both you have stated that you support it because Saddam is evil. No one disagrees that Saddam is evil. Most people don't believe that it is a sufficient reason to go to war.

No one disagrees with your right to voice your opinion. Please do continue to do so. Consider several things though:
People who question the war are looking for a valid reason that has not yet been established. For answers as to why people don't except the answers that Bush has given (including Saddam is Evil), just go check out the some of the other threads.

Also realize that those who support the war are in the minority. In the US, 62% supported action ONLY if the UN backed us. Also realize that the World as whole does not support the action. So while you may feel very strongly about the righteousness of the war, your opinion is currently in the minority.

And before you get offended, just because your opinion is in the minority, doesn't invalidate it, or take away your right to voice it. Just to let you know that you will meet strong opposition when voicing such an opinion.

[pkt]

Moon,

Here's the link to Reuters, by all means let them know that I infringed on their copyright.
http://www.reuters.com/


". pkt...thanks for being disrespectful enough to post the entire article when I specifically said, "no thanks." I still didn't read it."

Alas, there's nothing more sad than a closed mind.

2. Speaking of authors & journalism, did you know that half of what they allegedly quote isn't correct? It's all about spin, baby. It's all about the ratings.

I've sent an email to Sen. Byrd to ask him to verify the truthfulness or completeness of that piece since I can not seem to find the transcript on the Senate website.

"3. achilles, I used to respect you, but your childish comment toward Willow for her tag line threw all that respect out the window. That's the tag she uses for Fantasy Land. But I forgot, some people don't happen to like Fantasy Land here. Oh well...some people have sticks (or their heads) so far up their rectal cavities that they don't see anything but their own jaws flapping."

Boo hoo hoo, I don't like what you said, i'm taking my ball home and tell mommy.


"4. Whatever reason the troops are over there, no matter if we agree or disagree, we should support them. Do you really think it helps their morale when "discussions" (aka fights) like this are going on? Particularly about their Commander-in-Chief? It could be worse, you could be living in Iraq. If you'd like to go give it a shot, I'll buy you your one way ticket, as I promised."

Nobody has thus far diss the service people here or anywhere. Dissing the POTUS is part of the democratic right, democratic tradition of any American.

Most of the world disagree with the POTUS and that includes the Pope, President Nelson Mandela just to name a couple of famous people. Oh, can't forget Senator Byrd. Of course.

"And pkt, if you ever need anything, don't ask me (or anyone else for that matter) for help. It's not our "right." Do it your own damn self, you spoiled twit."

Did I ask you for anything? I know not who you are.

Moon, you seem to be confusing about people who ask for help and the US volunteering to help the Iraqi people. One of the things that non-citizens of the US hate about the Americans is the latter's propensity to proselytise.

It seems to me that you don't like a civil discussion wherein people disagree with you. Ah, we all can use some sycophants around our tushes.

If Moon is almost enlightened, then god help us all.

PK

[thebigriddle]

hey I have tried to post twice and both I had time I will try for a third.

[thebigriddle]

I think the man from Canada has good point.

[pkt]

hey, thebigriddle

There are three of us from Canada - two in this thread: civiltech, and myself. (The 3rd is lemberg.)

Praytell which one of us do you mean.



PK

[pkt]

civiltech,

I just read your profile.

sacre bleu, you're not pulling our collective legs when you wrote that you're a member of the Monarchist League, are you?

I am an anglophile working up my courage to be a monarchist... it's all those colonial, catholic schooling I got in Hong Kong, you see.

I think the dichotomy we have under the British system is the best:
the monarch has all the powers but can't exercise it - not without peril to the monarch's status; the executive in the form of the PM, has none of the power but can exercise them with the monarch's consent.

Furthermore, since the Queen's ascension to the throne - I actually saw the coronation procession in HK and can remember bits of it, yes, I'm that old... - how many PMs and POTUS have come and gone? I think it was Ike who was POTUS when she became Queen, right?

PK

[Willow]

Don't like my profile signature, tough. It's my Fantasy Land line.... Of course, thank God I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality, unlike some. As for Michael Moore, sure, he had the right to say what he said, but one should think about when you are doing so..."Is this the right time to be saying this? Should I wait until I'm in a more appropriate time and place?" That's what made him look like an idiot..the time and place he did this. As for your so called polls....where did you get that figure? I live right by a military base...the one my husband works at. People there sure know that there's a time and a place for war and we are at that time and that place. It's perfectly ok for you to disagree with me. I really don't have any problem with that one bit. No two people are going to agree with everything. However, being military, I do tend to know a bit more than most people about what's really going on in the world. Not saying "I'm right and you're wrong," just that I make darn sure to be as well informed as I possibly can before I make any decisions about anything. If I'm wrong, fine, if I'm right, fine. However, to attack me merely because you don't care for my profile signature...that's rather childish. If you have a problem with it, come to me, personally....we'll talk. I'm willing to talk to anyone that has a question for me. There's a lovely thing called a PM. It tends to work. If I have any more questions for you, I'll be happy to contact you via the PM. Let's take this off the forum and into private discussion if there is a problem.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Willow
Don't like my profile signature, tough. It's my Fantasy Land line.... Of course, thank God I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality, unlike some. As for Michael Moore, sure, he had the right to say what he said, but one should think about when you are doing so..."Is this the right time to be saying this? Should I wait until I'm in a more appropriate time and place?" That's what made him look like an idiot..the time and place he did this. As for your so called polls....where did you get that figure? I live right by a military base...the one my husband works at. People there sure know that there's a time and a place for war and we are at that time and that place. It's perfectly ok for you to disagree with me. I really don't have any problem with that one bit. No two people are going to agree with everything. However, being military, I do tend to know a bit more than most people about what's really going on in the world. Not saying "I'm right and you're wrong," just that I make darn sure to be as well informed as I possibly can before I make any decisions about anything. If I'm wrong, fine, if I'm right, fine. However, to attack me merely because you don't care for my profile signature...that's rather childish. If you have a problem with it, come to me, personally....we'll talk. I'm willing to talk to anyone that has a question for me. There's a lovely thing called a PM. It tends to work. If I have any more questions for you, I'll be happy to contact you via the PM. Let's take this off the forum and into private discussion if there is a problem.

I don't see a reason to take it off line. Just like my Michael Moore's message being hurt by his timing, just like the points on my first post on this thread being ignored by you and moonitic because of one line. That's the effect your tag line had on me initially.

Intitially that is. I responded to your post, not as an attack. Reread my post. It was in response to yours. I only mentioned the last line because it just made me chuckle, and at first made it difficult for me to respond to your comments. But, I did respond to your comments.

If you feel it was personal attack, you can relax. I don't know you personally, as I don't know many people on this board personally, so I have no intention of personally attacking you or anyone.

So, please back to the discussion.

You believe in the war. I'm fine with that. After following the long threads in the watercooler, please add something that hasn't been repeated ad nauseum.

Being military you must have some extra insight beyond, 'Saddam is Evil.' Please share it, because I for one would really like to back Bush, but he and his supporters have given me no reason to.

[Willow]

Oh, good grief....take it to PM...be a MAN or a WOMAN. Do NOT say "you believe in this war." Well, DUH....it's happening...it doesn't matter whether I believe in it or not...it's happening. I am going to support our troops that are over there with everything I have and am. I am going to support our President, because he has enough to worry about without worrying that the US isn't behind him. I have said repeatedly that I do NOT want war. However, it's happening. I can't pretend it isn't happening. Since we are at war, I will support the US troops. I will NOT be like idiots during Vietnam who spit on the troops when they came home. I will raise the flag, salute the troops, heck, I will bake cookies and mail them cards and gifts. They will know they are not alone and that they are supported. My neice and her hubby are involved....I will pray for them all and love them all and cry when the troops are hurt and even killed. I will cheer them when they win a battle. I will love them. Can you do the same?

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Willow
Oh, good grief....take it to PM...be a MAN or a WOMAN. Do NOT say "you believe in this war." Well, DUH....it's happening...it doesn't matter whether I believe in it or not...it's happening. I am going to support our troops that are over there with everything I have and am. I am going to support our President, because he has enough to worry about without worrying that the US isn't behind him. I have said repeatedly that I do NOT want war. However, it's happening. I can't pretend it isn't happening. Since we are at war, I will support the US troops. I will NOT be like idiots during Vietnam who spit on the troops when they came home. I will raise the flag, salute the troops, heck, I will bake cookies and mail them cards and gifts. They will know they are not alone and that they are supported. My neice and her hubby are involved....I will pray for them all and love them all and cry when the troops are hurt and even killed. I will cheer them when they win a battle. I will love them. Can you do the same?

Perhaps you should reread my earlier post.

No one here has said anything bad about the troops. In fact everyone here wishes them a safe return and is praying to whatever god they believe in that casulties are a kept to a minimum.

The argument taking place is the reason for there being a war in the first place. The argument taking place is why Bush sent troops like your family and my family and friends to Iraq. Is it just? Is it worth risking our loved ones for? Is it worth alienating our allies over? Was the US in such danger from Iraq that immediate consequences needed to be taken?

That's what people are arguing about.

I support our troops. My family and friends are among them.
I don't support our action.

[pkt]

achilleus,

right on.

PK

[Purple Fencer]

GETTING BACK ON TOPIC HERE....

I have seen the Al-Jazeera tape...it certainly looks like at least ao couple of the dead soldiers sustained head wounds. Frankly, I'd believe anything of Hussein's men...there's certainly enough anecdotal evidence of atrocities since he came into power.


Doesn't ANYONE want to mention the fact that one of our female POWs was rescued by US troops today?

[Gav]

It isn't 'unpatriotic' to question the war. Nor does questioning the wat mean you do not support the troops. In fact by question ing the war you are questioning why the troops were sent into conflict. Like me sitting at this keyboard they are just doing their job. I would suspect that the vast majority of soldiers couldn't give rats a$$ what we think of what they are doing. They are fighting a war, something that they have been trained for, not passing political comment on the Hussein regime. So by questioning the war you are questioning the reasons the troops were sent in not the troops themselves.

[Gav]

Originally posted by Moonitic
1. pkt...thanks for being disrespectful enough to post the entire article when I specifically said, "no thanks." I still didn't read it. By the way, that could be considered copyright infringement for posting here. I could contact the author, but why bother? Neither you nor the author are worth it at this point.

Moon' relax. Pkt may have published the link but you didn't [and didn't] have to read it. If he wants to illustrate his point he is entitled to do it in whatever way he sees fit. Incidentally as a writer don't you think that you should at least have considered reading the article? It makes sense to read both sides of the argument before making judgements on one side or the other. If you only read one side then you open yourself to bias.

2. Speaking of authors & journalism, did you know that half of what they allegedly quote isn't correct? It's all about spin, baby. It's all about the ratings.

I see that you are aware of journalistic bias.

5. Whether it's our "right" or not to help others isn't & shouldn't even be a question. You help when people need help. If Bush has different motives, that's him at this point. But there are many others whose motives are simply to help others. Gloss over THAT as much as you want. Make it a political thing all you want. That won't change.

There wasn't even a question of entering Iraq to help the populace until December. The Military build up had already started by that point. I sincerely doubt that Dubya even considered the Iraqi's until someone (C Powell?] pointed out how unpopular invading Iraq would be.

Once upon a time, I respected a lot of people on this board. But now that things are getting tough, & people's true natures are coming out, I am ashamed of how they're reacting. I'm glad that people died for my freedom. I thank God for them. Thank God that I have the ability, as a woman, to speak freely...walk freely...live freely. One person said that freedom is "slavery"...no. Real freedom is something else: It's responsibility. And a LOT of people are being irresponsible.

I for one am sorry that you feel this way.

"Freedom is Slavery" is a quote from 1984. It's one of the Motto's of The Party. Ican't remember what the term is [please someone post it to jog my memory] but this is a reversible term that means one thing one way and the something else another.

That's all I have to say on this matter. Any responses to me will be ignored, except by others who read it here.

That's like putting your fingers in your ears an shouting "la la la I can't hear you." You have strong views and should participate in any debate that obviously interests you [and this one seems to].

[Spanky]

hi Gav
I think the term in 1984 was 'doublespeak'...correct me if i'm mistaken.

now,as for the political topic, as a resident of the middle east, (but not iraq!) i am concerned about the possible spead of the conflict. them syrians are epitomising the unctuousness arab used-camel salesman by providing under-the-table support. i think they ought to say they do or say they dont...they aren't fooling anyone. as for the conflict itself. i was against it, now i wish it would just end as quickly as possible.