cheating

[drayke]

A fencer at the Arlington NAC had a foil lame that was clearly too small. When checked by the bout committee representative, there were almost three fingers exposed of the jacket, above the hip, not covered by the lame. Even more jacket not covered by the lame in the back, above the waist.

The fencer was told to remove the jacket and received a yellow card for equipment, and fenced using someone else's lame.

The very next bout, they had the lame back on, after being told in no uncertain terms that the lame was illegal and could not be worn.

Question is, should this be a yellow card offense, as it was a new bout, or is the intentional wearing of illegal equipment, a more serious offense? Should a lame that is clearly too small be considered in the same catagory as a body cord that fails unexpectedly? Failure of a body cord is a unpredictable action. Wearing a lame too small is an action that requires user choice and decsion.

Incidently, this fencer was not a rookie, but an experienced and rated foilest. The too small lame may not influence at pool levels, however with progression through DEs and lessening of the skill gap between opponents, the unfair advantage would considerably increase.

[oiuyt]

The very next bout, they had the lame back on, after being told in no uncertain terms that the lame was illegal and could not be worn.

Well that's just stupid. The same ref isn't going to not card him a second time.... Obviously he gets another yellow card and has the lame confiscated for another bout. Whether or not it's dishonest fencing (group III) would probably be a referee's discretion call. Manifest cheating with equipment (group IV)? Maybe, but I'd say not.

-B :)

[edew]

To be fair (to the one with the short lame), I'm guessing that the person has only one lame, and that was it. It was too short because the person probably grew a lot within the past year (14-16 year olds tend to do that) and hasn't worn out the lame yet, and wanted to get some additional mileage out of it.

I'm just guessing on the circumstances.

Anyway, measuring the lame versus the jacket is never sufficient. A former Southern California Fencer, Frank Fox always wore his jacket large. The lame looked tiny over his jacket, but when measured against his hipbones and shoulders, it met the criteria for legal target.

[hi5]

heres a good way to cheat but it takes some practice:

lets say your opponent is running you down the strip

step 1: make some large motions with your blade

step2: while making the large motions, take your free hand and place it on the alligator clip.

step3: remove the alligator clip from your lame

step4: attempt to make a parry and put the clip back on the lame on your reposte.

A director who knows about this trick and thinks there will be this kind of cheating will put the clip on the weapon arm side.

Heres a good one just to stall or if you want to piss off the guy you are fencing:

In saber, flip your opponents mask clip with the blade and send it flying across the room. you have to be careful that you dont do this one too much cuz it will piss off the director if done too much.
A couple times will suffice

but if the director starts showing signs of aggitation like:
1.yelling "ON GUARD!!!" when you are already on guard
2.giving you a piercing look and holding his hand on his jacket pocket, which basically says, im going to give you a card if you do that again.
3.If your opponent starts pointing his finger at you and whines "hes doing that on purpose"

then say "his mask clip is hanging over target." say this in a very innocent way.

[oiuyt]

A director who knows about this trick and thinks there will be this kind of cheating will put the clip on the weapon arm side.

Whether or not the referee thinks there will be cheating the rules specify that the clip MUST be on the weapon arm side.

-B :)

[JEC]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Well that's just stupid. The same ref isn't going to not card him a second time.... Obviously he gets another yellow card and has the lame confiscated for another bout. Whether or not it's dishonest fencing (group III) would probably be a referee's discretion call. Manifest cheating with equipment (group IV)? Maybe, but I'd say not.
-B

According to the rules, the referee confiscates the equipment that is then reviewed by the "expert consultant" (i.e.: the armourer) to get the opinion as to whether is conforming equipment (i.e.: material rules). Only then, it is determined whether the equipment is non-conforming, or has manifest alterations with the purpose of cheating or only is dishonest (not fitting; being told; continue to used it without alteration).
Brad is right. The rules specifically state that the alligator clip must be on the back of the non-weapon arm.

[pkt]

In the bad old days a foilist would casually put the skinny alligator on the front of the hip on the non-sword arm side.

As a cool foilist one would fence with one's hand close to the clip. As one lunges to deliver the attack, the non-sword hand would
'accidentally' hooks the wire connecting the alligator clip to the plug, there goes the alligator clip .

Attack: "No".
Riposte: "Yes, off target." #@%*

Hence the new rule.

--)----------

A small foilist would use an FIE epee mask with the exra long bib... half her target would eb under the bib...

When challenged, she would protest, "...but this is an FIE masque!"

"Ah, when fencing foil the mask should be insulated..."

Has anyone of us who refs yellowed carded someon over this? With out getting this line in return?

--)----------

In epee, when one is not fencing on a raised piste, fence along the edge of the metallic piste, with the point d'arret down about an inch off the tape holding the metallic piste to the floor.

As one starts an attack, flick hit to the tape then raise the point ...

Hence the admonition to the ref to move the fencers to the 'middle of the piste'.

--)----------

PK

[The0ne]

The most outrageous cheating story i have heard was that an Epeeist at 14-14 walked back to his end of the strip stuck his finger UP his nose put the "results" on his tip, and proceeded to hit his opponents bellguard. I dont remember if the point counted due to the referee thinking the attack hit the arm or not. . .
I like that one though

[pkt]

That's theONE. It's absolutely ingenious!!!!

PK

[Chris]

Originally posted by pkt
In the bad old days a foilist would casually put the skinny alligator on the front of the hip on the non-sword arm side.

As a cool foilist one would fence with one's hand close to the clip. As one lunges to deliver the attack, the non-sword hand would
'accidentally' hooks the wire connecting the alligator clip to the plug, there goes the alligator clip .

Attack: "No".
Riposte: "Yes, off target." #@%*

Hence the new rule.

--)----------

Except that the rule is at LEAST 15 years old!

"Ah, when fencing foil the mask should be insulated..."

Has anyone of us who refs yellowed carded someon over this? With out getting this line in return?

--)----------

Time was (like 1974!), when they first started fussing about such things, that the material rules
for foil stated that the mesh of the foil mask was supposed to have an insulating layer applied BEFORE the mask was formed.

Another rule stated that the mask should be dipped in tin (to bond the interlinking mesh wires) AFTER it was formed!

Apparently they didn't eview the rules when the wrote the second one (whichever one was second),

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by The0ne
The most outrageous cheating story i have heard was that an Epeeist at 14-14 walked back to his end of the strip stuck his finger UP his nose put the "results" on his tip, and proceeded to hit his opponents bellguard. I dont remember if the point counted due to the referee thinking the attack hit the arm or not. . .
I like that one though

Ugh! You point-only people are so gross!

[drayke]

Originally posted by edew
To be fair (to the one with the short lame), I'm guessing that the person has only one lame, and that was it. It was too short because the person probably grew a lot within the past year (14-16 year olds tend to do that) and hasn't worn out the lame yet, and wanted to get some additional mileage out of it.

I'm just guessing on the circumstances.

Anyway, measuring the lame versus the jacket is never sufficient. A former Southern California Fencer, Frank Fox always wore his jacket large. The lame looked tiny over his jacket, but when measured against his hipbones and shoulders, it met the criteria for legal target.

oh, lame was measured against the hip bone and the individual appeared definitly past the growth spurt age of 14-16.

[sallearmourer]

We could have that lame in question legal in 30 minutes at faction of the cost of a new one.
This did happen in the 64 games in Tokyo both the French and the British team showed up with illegal lames and had to have them fix on the spots by the ladies there with sewing machines and you could really notice how much of the target area was missing by the difference in color of the lame repair


Tim

[drayke]

Originally posted by sallearmourer
We could have that lame in question legal in 30 minutes at faction of the cost of a new one.
This did happen in the 64 games in Tokyo both the French and the British team showed up with illegal lames and had to have them fix on the spots by the ladies there with sewing machines and you could really notice how much of the target area was missing by the difference in color of the lame repair


Tim

Tim,
the fencer in question perfered the short lame.

[MikeHarm]

Speaking of cheating, has anyone been caught retempering the Sabre 2000 blades to make them more flexible yet?

[DHCJr]

Why bother, you can find S2000 blades that would make foils look stiff and at the NAC's they don't check flexibility. They just check that they have a S2000 stamp.

[oiuyt]

I can't remember having my stamp checked except in the two events I did in England. I wouldn't be surprised if a few years ago when it was a new rule that I was checked and just don't remember it, but checking certainly isn't currently routine at NACs.

Nor was it done at the WC in Peabody the past couple of years.

-B :)

[Chrome]

im new to this, fill me in lol