Epee tactics

[jspierre]

You fence with a pistole grip and your opponent pommels a french grip. The guy is like a slippery fish - it's all debrobement, disengage, tight deceives off your blade, actions to your advanced target areas. He's cautious, and not willing to take risks in his attacks, and very mobile defensively. What do you do?

Do you adopt the same approach and try and out fence these tactics, or do you try and find ways to take strong attacks to the body and take control of his blade somehow?

Your thoughts?

[edew]

Originally posted by jspierre
You fence with a pistole grip and your opponent pommels a french grip. The guy is like a slippery fish - it's all debrobement, disengage, tight deceives off your blade, actions to your advanced target areas. He's cautious, and not willing to take risks in his attacks, and very mobile defensively. What do you do?

Do you adopt the same approach and try and out fence these tactics, or do you try and find ways to take strong attacks to the body and take control of his blade somehow?

Your thoughts?

You can try to beat hard to the forte of the blade. That part of the blade does not move as quickly or as far as the tip can. If you try to take the tip, his slipperiness will get around your binds. But a good hard whack near the mid-to-strong part of the blade can be disconcerting. You will have more strength than your opponent because you're using a pistolgrip.

Or, make two beats, one to cause your opponent to give you the slip, the second to beat the slip and hit. This, I think, is tougher, as the slipped blade can hit you before you can initiate the second beat.

[Style]

I have a little trick known as the "just standing there" trick.

I've become very adept at keeping distance fairly well so that my opponents attacks fall short by an inch or two.


When I come across an opponent who is running away or moving all over the place, I just stand still.

The other person will anticipate parries and retreats, so he/she will naturally be overly cautious and attempt a fancy attack (like a 1-2 or 1-2-3, or coupe). In which case, you hit their wrist as soon as their arm starts moving.

Anyway, try to just stand there and not parry any of their feints. If they try to beat your blade, move your blade out of the way.

I like this tactic, it annoys people. Then I touch them.

[remise]

I fence epee and my son fences foil - and only with a french grip. He is lightning-fast. Even the adults in our club who have been fencing a while admit he can stymie them. I work out with him regularly. It is my only defense against another epee fencer with the same tactics. I figure if I can score on HIM a few times with his warp-speed reflexes, I can hit a few of the epee fencers. And it works, for the most part. For those of you who don't have a buddy to practice with and acquire an ease with this sort of thing, I'll lend you my son.

[MHS Fencer]

I used to hate fencing fencers who used a french grip, now I love it. It's all about the footwork and the ability to move back and forth. If the guy's using a french grip, then he has an extra couple (few?) inches on you, which is only an advantage if you let him control the distance. If you stay mobile, pushing forward and back (but never allowing him to strike) he will push back at you and overcommit, allowing a quick pick up (double circle six, or triple if you're fast enough) and then a riposte. Blade control means nothing if you're not at the right distance, particularly because you can't get it properly without the distance. Just keep moving, set it up with distance, and then go when you see it as if your life depended on it (that works in all cases).

[remise]

I'm trying, I'm trying!!! I forgot to say that his footwork is better than his bladework. He moves like a ghost. One second he's way back, the next SPLIT SECOND, he's right in your face. And I mean split second. This kid had practiced his footwork daily, and it has paid off. I've seen fencers who have fenced longer than he is old get frustrated at how they find it hard to 'touch him'. Sadly, he refuses to compete. I'd like to see if he'd get a rating, and if so, what it would be. Just a Mom's curiosity, but hey, it's his decision.

[Gav]

Beating the blade can work however if this person is superb derober then he may anitcipate a lot of your attempts to beat and stop hit you in the opposite line. There is one person who I have fenced relatively regularly with a french grip and one way I have found to take him out is to beat the blade, go fo the wirst, if he goes for the derobe I either counter-disengage him [amd block] or do a fast remise and catch him on the change. He's a tricky customer and my timing has to be spot on but last time we fought I did beat him 5-0 in pools.

If you can get hold of footage of the last world champs watch the final between Koblokov and Milanoli for another alternative. Koblokov used a lot of distance and tempo changes to 'trick' Milanoli into distance for a bind or fleche. If you watch he is contstantly looking for the bind or fleching opportunity.

[remise]

Well, let me put it this way. I'm not that great and I haven't been fencing that long. But I thought about what you said GAV, and it just doesn't work. I'd think to myself, "OK, I'm going to keep my distance now and AAARRRGH!!! I'm hit! Ok, ok, ok.....I'm going to advance and AAAARRRRGH!!!"

It's like this...I've been fencing for for 36 months. He's been fencing almost since he's been walking. I'm his pin cushion. But the part about derobement, that DOES work. The problem is that I'm old. I have to get it split-second right in order to get my touch, and so far.......well, let's put it this way. Out of 15 touches, I'll take a bow if I get 3.

Sorry, but I just haven't gotten that good yet.

[Gav]

Ah. It might not come in the 1st few attempts. Your timing would have to be spot on - young or old.

Don't spend too much time trying to think about it. Practice the action off-piste and try and visualise what it is you are attempting. When you are bouting it doesn't matter who wins or loses - that only matters when in competition. In fact bouting is the best time to try and work out what to do.

Don't forget that in Epee you can get away with a lot if you 'stick your arm out'!

[earlie]

You are quite right and it is a quick derobing with the french grip but normally the proper epeeist can always counteract and also deroble. Can a disk.

[AaronK]

If the epeeist is good, you can't simply rely on a good idea and sound technique. You'll have to trick them into getting hit.
I think you could take the blade if you can draw a counter-attack. Making a false-attack that reaches just over the guard (but not near the hand if they like to post with a French-grip), may draw a counter-attack. If you are annoyingly persistent and patient, you can get a counter-attack. (If this guy was good and had a pistol grip the risk of being picked up and flicked on the hand is high, but not as much with the French grip). If you can continue this without getting hit and staying just out of reach, the counter-attack may overextend enough so that you can yield and riposte (as they close distance).
Or if you like adventure, fake a second-intention (sweep and retake) attack until the opponent is ready to make a compound counter-attack. Hopefully you can read this in their body language or face, which makes it more of a surprise when you...make a simple attack that *looks* like you were going to sweep the line again. As they are disengaging a pris-de-fer that never happens you are hitting them in the hand. I think this can catch the opponent more by surprise because the [expected] tactic in a French-grip v. Pistol-grip fight is that the French grip is going to out-reach you, while you are going to out-muscle your opponent.
In any case I think that your goal is always to try and fence your best game, while frustrating your opponent's attempt to fence theirs. Simply harassing their blade continuously will get tiresome, they may get tired of slipping the attempts to take or sweep and fence with their arm in another position, or you can frustrate their grip and hand (making it tired).
Aaron K