Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

shamshir · 03-18-2003, 12:51 PM

Ok, I stumbled across one of the most surreal things I've ever seen on the net. The website of a fencer... but it's like, a *fan* website. (Ok, done by his father, but it's still for fans of his son)

www.kothny.de

If anyone reads German better than I, I can post a link to one of the word documents contained on that website, which is a letter written by Kothny's manager (his dad) to the DfB, Deutsche Fechter Bund, about why Wiradech Kothny (he won a bronze at Sydney in MS I believe) is now fencing for Thailand instead of Germany.

Anyway, the website is cool, there are actually some really good pics and stuff of Kothny. I encourage you all to check it out. He even has links to lots of federations and other fencer's sites: the two German Bauers, Imke Duplitzer the epeeist, Diana Bianchedi the foilist, etc. It cracks me up.

Kothny's site is pretty well designed too.

edew · 03-18-2003, 12:59 PM

Willy Kothny was born in Thailand, adopted by his adopted father, and brought to Germany. He wants to fence for Thailand just because he's a Thai. I guess.

shamshir · 03-18-2003, 01:19 PM

Nah, I could understand enough of the letter to see that it had something to do with funding of some sort. From what I could gather:

- Kothny is in Thailand now, studying there (in Bangkok I think)

- Thailand is willing to fund something that the DfB isn't (maybe the FISU Games? I don't know). Seems surprising because generally western Europe is good for funding. Germany isn't like Italy or France, but I imagine it's still decent

The weird thing is that Kothny came up through the German system, and fenced for them internationally, even winning medals at the last Olympics. It seems strange for him to switch.

I would expect that from people who were just below national team level, and wanted to switch to another country with easier qualification requirements to participate in World Championships / Olympics or even WC's. But Kothny was like totally at the top of the game in Germany. Something doesn't add up.

Also, not surprisingly, his performance has shot straight down since the change. I imagine he has nobody to train with even close to his level in Thailand.

Has anyone seen this guy fence? I would have to say that he is the most athletic sabre fencer I've ever seen, bar none. The only person I've seen who can even come close to him is Keeth Smart, and I admit I haven't seen Keeth in over a year. Kothny can do a double-lunge (lunge, recover forward, lunge again) in the time it takes some fencers to do a single lunge. I'm not kidding. The guy has bionic legs.

edew · 03-18-2003, 01:26 PM

Qualifying to the Olympics is not much easier for a Thai than for a German. The primary way to qualify for the Olympics is by making the top-24 in the worlds. That's tough.

But the reason that Kothny chose Thai (as opposed to Indonesia or New Zealand or Guatamala) is because he's Thai and would like to also represent his native country.

pkt · 03-18-2003, 01:31 PM

shamshir,

here's the link to Babel Fish. It is most useful when you already know ein bischen Deutsch or un peu francais...

http://world.altavista.com/

I heard from one of the sabreurs in Seattle there seems to be quite a bit going on in Thailand. He went there to train with one of the top Brits...

PK

shamshir · 03-18-2003, 01:35 PM

You're right about Olympic qualifying, Eric. But my point was also for worlds teams and such.

There are two bits to any qualifying, the international side, and the domestic side. I know for example in Canada there are new draconian rules (a really good idea IMO) about representing Canada at any World Cup. You can't just send any schmoe anymore, who happens to be travelling to that country. Lots of the little fencing nations have no rules of that sort, because they just want to be represented.

Top Brit in Thailand? Haven't heard about that -- is it James Williams or something?

shamshir · 03-18-2003, 02:18 PM

Ok, I can't for the life of me find that word document which is a letter from Kothny's dad to the DfB detailing the reasons for the switch. I should have saved it. However, reading their forum, with my limited knowledge of German, this is what I've uncovered (I think):

Kothny went to Thailand for college/university, for whatever personal reasons (probably wants to visit or return to his roots). However, according to DfB regulations (not specific to Kothny, but to any German athlete studying abroad) he is no longer eligible for funding. Either no funding at all, or just that the DfB refuses to pay travel expenses to World Cups from the Asian zone, as these are incredibly expensive. Flights from Thailand 7 or 8 times a year to Europe cost a pretty penny.

The Amateur Thai Fencing Association agreed, however, to foot the bill for this, so Kothny switched allegiances, and it helps the development of Thai fencing too.

Bad blood seems to have developed, though. The DfB obviously is sort of pissed. Kothny is pissed because, as his father states it, Willi Kothny is now subject to a 3 year prohibition in terms of representing Germany. Not sure if that's three years starting AFTER he returns to Germany (if he does), or 3 years from now, but the point was that 3 years in 2 years longer than the mandatory suspension from competition of an athlete caught doping. So in their eyes:

-get caught doping, don't fence for 1 year
-fence for Thailand for a short stint, don't fence for 3 years

Anyway, an interesting situation. How does the USFA deal with people studying abroad? I imagine they'd love it, wouldn't they? Usually (from what I know) North American fencers go abroad to "study" in countries in Western or Eastern Europe, and in either case, that means much much lower travel expenses.

veeco · 03-18-2003, 02:47 PM

Actually, if you get married and get another citizenship, then by FIE rules you can fence for that other country right away, without waiting for the 3 years, which is what Willy did.

Also, I seem to remember from reading this site a while ago, that the Thai federation was really eager to get him to fence for them, so they did give him funding, as well as some sort of salary that's being paid to him per month. I think that they are really trying to push him hard for the next Olympics and hope to get a medal from him.

Gav · 03-18-2003, 03:27 PM

nyone know why there are pics of a mongoose everywhere?

oiuyt · 03-18-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco
Actually, if you get married and get another citizenship, then by FIE rules you can fence for that other country right away, without waiting for the 3 years, which is what Willy did.

Also, I seem to remember from reading this site a while ago, that the Thai federation was really eager to get him to fence for them, so they did give him funding, as well as some sort of salary that's being paid to him per month. I think that they are really trying to push him hard for the next Olympics and hope to get a medal from him.

But if you then return it'll be 3 years off before you can fence for the original country. Once he's represented Thailand he'll need that off period before he can represent Germany again if he ever so desires.

Shamshir- This is the source of the 3 year period of not being able to compete internationally. This isn't a German rule. The FIE doesn't really want international mercenary fencers flipping allegiance at whim, hence a VERY high barrier.

-B :)

shamshir · 03-18-2003, 04:35 PM

So I guess the result of this is that Kothny won't change allegiance, at least not in the near future. If Thailand supports him, then great. Only problem for him being training.

But perhaps Thailand would have no problem with him moving back to Germany when done school, and training in Germany. Certainly the DfB could not have any prohibition on training at German clubs, because that's all privately done. They may force his coach to charge him exhorbitant fees though, that the Thai fed would have to pay.

I'm sure Thailand would be happy to pay for his airfares FROM Koblenz to Euro WC's, and have him fly to Thailand a couple times a year for token purposes, than to have to pay his costs based in Thailand.

nahouw · 03-18-2003, 11:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by edew
[b]Qualifying to the Olympics is not much easier for a Thai than for a German. The primary way to qualify for the Olympics is by making the top-24 in the worlds. That's tough.

Qualifying for the Olympics IS easier for Kothny if he is fencing under his Thai citizenship -- which, I don't know if he actually retained it while being adopted, however, he covered that base by marrying a Thai girl while he is studying in Thailand.....

If he doesn't qualify by being in the top 8 in the World Ranking, he will certainly be the top fencer in Asia in the Adjusted World Rankings -- I doubt that he would have to qualify via the zonal, because I can't name a male Asian sabre fencer that comes close to him. Smart move on his part, because he is a definite in Athens.

veeco · 03-18-2003, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oiuyt
But if you then return it'll be 3 years off before you can fence for the original country. Once he's represented Thailand he'll need that off period before he can represent Germany again if he ever so desires.
-B

Actually, I believe that once you have changed allegiance, then you cannot go back to the previous country at all... But I could be wrong...

lfortier · 03-19-2003, 12:06 AM

You should try http://www.free-translator.com/translator1.html because when you type any language in the text box (i.e German to English) it perfectly translates it for ya.

michel · 03-19-2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco
Actually, I believe that once you have changed allegiance, then you cannot go back to the previous country at all... But I could be wrong...

You're not wrong.
Here is a piece of FIE Statutes, which can answer to several questions of this thread :

9.2 FENCERS' NATIONALITY

9.2.3 For official competitions of the F.I.E., competitors must be strictly of the nationality of the country which they are representing:
a) The fencer who enjoys multiple nationality must choose which country he wishes to represent. The fact that he has fenced for one of the countries implies that he has made a choice. If he wishes to represent another country of which he enjoys nationality, he must so advise the Office of the F.I.E. and he may only represent this other country after an interval of three years from when he advised the Central Office of the F.I.E., during which he can no longer represent the other country.
b) A fencer who has already represented a country and acquires a new nationality (from being stateless or through naturalisation) can only represent his new country after an interval of three years from his last participation in a competition for his previous country.
c) The fencer who acquires a new nationality as a result of marriage may fence for that new country immediately, without waiting three years.
d) The Executive Committee of the F.I.E., with the agreement of the member federations concerned, and only for just reasons, may reduce or dispense with the interval of three years.
e) The fencer who has never participated in an official competition of the F.I.E. or in a Regional Championships, is not constrained by these limitations concerning change of nationality and may fence for his new country immediately.
f) Any change in country which a fencer represents is definitive; no further change can be authorised.

9.2.4 In the case of other international competitions, the F.I.E., although still in favour of the same ruling, is more tolerant in the matter of countries represented as long as foreigners have actually been residing for five consecutive years in the country which they are invited to represent, and have not represented their own country for five years.
For these same competitions fencers who are legally stateless may compete as long as they are registered by the member federation of the country in which they live.

pkt · 03-19-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lfortier
You should try http://www.free-translator.com/translator1.html because when you type any language in the text box (i.e German to English) it perfectly translates it for ya.

Hey, lfortier,

is this a better site than Bael Fish?

I haven't got a chance to test out the site you named above...

PK

lfortier · 03-19-2003, 04:52 PM

Yes, in my opinion it is. Besides tranlating German, it can do more than 20 languages- and its sooooo easy to use;try it next time you stumble upon a few foreign words, as I've found it very handy if I have trouble with my French homework

edew · 03-19-2003, 05:17 PM

For all my translating purposes (and those who know me personally know what I mean...), I use this ever useful,

http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/

The alternative dictionaries.

Cus umak to all.

lfortier · 03-19-2003, 05:55 PM

Well, edew your fav dictionary is, well, um interesting... and vulgar

but hey its slang. I'll use it for cussing in French at my teachers if they annoy me- Thanks!